Bethesda: Save the Single Player games

I think from my dim memory that in addition to the whole treatment of the BOS as superheroes, they have one of the main characters being the big asshole BOS from the first game despite the fact he'd be dead or an old man as a major character.

Mind you, I think I have less issue with F3 because I consider Bethesda's take on it to be an alternate universe/soft reboot.
They explain it in the game (the being a super hero thing), and it is not a lore contradiction. They are not super heroes, they are a rogue faction that split from the original BoS to fight the remaining hostile mutants. They didn't get any support from the BoS Elder Council and even received bad criticism:
Before 2208, Rhombus created a splinter faction of the Brotherhood of Steel, despite some criticism from the elder council because of the former expedition grown by similar ambitions (to track down and assess the extent of the remaining super mutant threat) and the ensuing incident that divided the Brotherhood. He then starts a crusade against the largest faction of super mutants currently existing in the west, the Attis Army.

With some scribes and paladins, he mounted a new expedition which was later named the "Texas Expedition" and began tracking Attis' Army. They followed the army's trail to Texas and there, he discovered the vault prototype, an abandoned vault prototype dedicated to the Secret Vault project and installed themselves as the main base of the Brotherhood of Steel in Texas.

In 2208, Jane, the raider matron and their contact in the town of Carbon, reported movement of super mutants, and therefore Rhombus decided to go to Carbon with a group of paladins. Her information indicated their next destination, the ghoul city of Los. Here, Rhombus ends up being alone, captured, with all his comrades being killed in a bloody battle with super mutants and a local ghoul cult known as the Church of the Lost, but he managed to steal a keycard of the Secret Vault, the final destination of the Attis army and hid it under a truck. Rhombus is tortured by the cult leader, Blake, but later liberated by the Initiate. Afterward, Rhombus assisted the Initiate in getting to the truck where he had hidden the keycard. Once at the destination however, he is blown up by a ghoul suicide bomber.

Unable to continue fighting, he gives the Initiate the keycard and entrusts him with the task of stopping Attis' army and finding the Secret Vault entrance. Rhombus is left sitting near the truck, wounded. However, if the Initiate returns to the place later, Rhombus is nowhere to be seen. His fate is unknown.
Now that I think about it, even the FO3 BoS was copied from a previous game, F:BOS :roll:.


About Rhombus being alive. The Vault Dweller is also still alive by the time of F:BOS (it's the year he leaves Arroyo) and the Vault Dweller is implied to be 27 years old when Fallout 1 starts. So Rhombus can be around that age in Fallout 1 and still be alive by 2208 (around the age of 70).
He is already quite old in F:BOS ingame too:
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Because like Fallout 2 it builds upon the world using factions old and new and putting them in new situations. Fallout is so much more than just how it plays. It is so far from "totally unrelated".
Nah, it's the same world, totally unrelated story and how the game plays is actually a defining factor of what Fallout is, as a lot of people loved the game for its turn-based combat system.

Also calling NV a shooter is ridiculous.
It's a goddamn shooter, unless you keep using VATS, and it's actually a pretty bad shooter with bullet sponge enemies and many other annoyances.

The game never forces you into a corridor ala fo3/4 and a passive/diplomatic play through is entirely doable. It's much more rpg than FPS.
FNV is more of an RPG compared to FO3, but it's still NOT Fallout.

Well now you're just being an idiot. It's a game based on the original design documents of van Buren. Yes it may use bethesda's shit engine and due to time constraints and bizarre demands it may not be everything they had intended but it is an amazing sequel because it build on the world in unique and interesting ways.
How does any of that make Van Buren a "sequel" to Fallout 2? Would you call any unrelated story taking place in the Middle Earth as the Lord of the Rings?
 
Nah, it's the same world, totally unrelated story
Apart from things like the NCR, Khans, jackals, vipers, Marcus, enclave remants, BOS, super mutants... and none of this was used as a cosmetic "look fallout" like in 3/4 they returned with a point and to explore new situations. It builds on the universe what more does a sequel need?
It's a goddamn shooter,
It's an rpg with fps elements. I noticed you had to ignore the rest of my comment to assert that it's nothing more than shooter.
it's still NOT Fallout.
I'd argue NV is even more fallout than the original. The entire premises is to see how post apocalyptic societies emerge and interact and NV does this on a much larger scale than the original and has more choice and endings. It has everything I loved about the first two dialed up to 11. Honestly what is it missing as a fallout game other than "muh turned based combat"?
How does any of that make Van Buren a "sequel" to Fallout 2? Would you call any unrelated story taking place in the Middle Earth as the Lord of the Rings?
It's a sequel because it takes previous factions and shows us their future. This isn't hard. What is two only a sequel because of that cliché grandson bullshit? Because a family lineage of heroes was never the purpose. It was to build and explore a post apocalyptic world which new Vegas does more than 1/2 combined. It adds so much of value to the fallout mythos that you'd have to be insane to just dismiss it off hand because "muh turn based combat"
 
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But yes, to get back to the original story, Dishonored and Wolfenstein are fucking awesome games.

Doom too.

I'm surprised there's arguments against this even here.
 
Meh dishonered was piss easy even on very hard and didn't have much variety in the level design or freedom approach *at all*

And wolfenstien was far from amazing. Haven't played the new doom yet.
 
nkchan16 said:
FNV is a total conversion mod for 3, which tries the bring back the "feel" of the original games... and fails.
Oh, wow. People still think of this bullshit? Please elaborate how is FNV is just 'a total conversion mod for 3'. Playing even the damn vanilla game revealed shitload of stuff that prove it's a completely new game. It has different (and arguably, better) animation, it has DT, it has STR and Weapon Skill requirement, Melee and Unarmed unlock special moves for VATS as you put skillpoints into it, etc etc etc etc. We even have modders like @Risewild who've worked on Tale of Two Wasteland mod that allows you to play Fallout 3 on the objectively better engine version of New Vegas, and because he and the team has scrutinized both games to its very core and side by side, you will know that he will tell you that New Vegas is NOT just a TC mod for 3, and despite of its shortcoming in terms of RPG mechanics, New Vegas managed to bring the feel of the originals and the best for both worlds. The very fact that it takes places near the West Coast AND actually continued the story of 2 means it's the actual sequel to Fallout 2 than Fallout 3.
 
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But yes, to get back to the original story, Dishonored and Wolfenstein are fucking awesome games.

Doom too.

I'm surprised there's arguments against this even here.

Prey and Dishonored was made by Arkane Studios, The Evil Within by Tango Gameworks, Wolfenstein by MachineGames, Doom was made by Id Software. Only Fallout 4 and Skyrim were actually made by Bethesda themselves.

So how exactly have they "saved" any kind of gaming?
 
It builds on the universe what more does a sequel need?

What a "sequel" needs is a continuing story. There is NO sequel to Fallout 2. FNV is just another game in "Fallout game series" taking place in the same Fallout universe.
It's an rpg with fps elements. I noticed you had to ignore the rest of my comment to assert that it's nothing more than shooter.

FNV is also a 3rd person shooter, a shooter nonetheless, which defines its combat mechanics, whether or not the game is an RPG is irrelevant, it may be an RPG, may have some RPG elements, or none of it.

I'd argue NV is even more fallout than the original. The entire premises is to see how post apocalyptic societies emerge and interact and NV does this on a much larger scale than the original and has more choice and endings. It has everything I loved about the first two dialed up to 11. Honestly what is it missing as a fallout game other than "muh turned based combat"?

Are you seriously comparing FNV to a 20 year old game, which was almost cancelled a couple of times before release and complaining that it had less stuff in it, the lore was "less developed"?! :lol:

And how would you even know what the first two Fallout games were to us, the people who played them back in the day, you weren't even a sperm back then, and now lecturing people on what Fallout is or isn't. Keep in mind, without the success of "muh turned-based combat" you wouldn't have a NV.

It's a sequel because it takes previous factions and shows us their future. This isn't hard. What is two only a sequel because of that cliché grandson bullshit?

That "grandson bullshit" made 2 a "sequel". Factions, some of which didn't even exist in the first game, were just supporting elements of the story.

Oh, wow. People still think of this bullshit? Please elaborate how is FNV is just 'a total conversion mod for 3'. Playing even the damn vanilla game revealed shitload of stuff that prove it's a completely new game. It has different (and arguably, better) animation, it has DT, it has STR and Weapon Skill requirement, Melee and Unarmed unlock special moves for VATS as you put skillpoints into it, etc etc etc etc.

Do you even know what a total conversion mod is? It may add all the stuff you describe to the base game and more. Ever heard of Counter Strike, DayZ, Enderal? It's the same goddamn Gamebryo engine licensed by Bethesda.

Goddamn clueless millenials...
 
Do you even know what a total conversion mod is? It may add all the stuff you describe to the base game and more. Ever heard of Counter Strike, DayZ, Enderal? It's the same goddamn Gamebryo engine licensed by Bethesda.

Goddamn clueless millenials...
I know what a goddamn TC mod is. I played Fallout 1.5 after all. And you still haven't elaborated on why New Vegas is a TC mod to Fallout 3. Not to mention the fact it continued the story of Fallout 2, so how it's not an actual sequel to it instead of Fallout 3?
 
Oh, wow. People still think of this bullshit? Please elaborate how is FNV is just 'a total conversion mod for 3'.
It is, it just doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. Same engine, a LOT of shared assets, a fair share of content like items, AI behaviours and entities are often 1:1. Hell, you can even find a lot of cut content from Fo3 if you tinker with it. You mention TTW, and that's another example of the games being so similar in a technical level that such a thing can be done.

Would you call any unrelated story taking place in the Middle Earth as the Lord of the Rings?
The Lord Of The Rings is a sequel to The Hobbit, takes place about 80 years later (or more), only shares a main character and about three secondary characters, and one's dead! Hobbit could have been a stand-alone story, as it very much was in intention. That is the case for most first installments/seasons, as you never know if you'll ever get a shot at finishing that overarching story.

Story and narrative wise, a sequel will be a new installment in the same universe, later in whatever timeline has been established. One that takes place before the events of the established events, but is released after, will be a prequel. They'll have in common also more things to be considered part of the same "canon"; characters, plot points, recurrent themes and elements, etcetera. They'll also usually belong all in the same medium, so you can't have X-1 a book, and then have X-2 a movie and be a proper sequel as a leap in the expression will count for a spinoff.

Now, we're talking games here, and as the expressive and interactive systems they are, all of the above elements can be translated to gameplay ones and still count. Perspective alone doesn't do it to call it a discontinuation. None of the diegetic and/or narrative elements might be there but an evolution in gameplay will still account for such, this being the vase for most more arcade or simplistic games. And of course, you can have both.

Fallout 3 is a spin-off because it takes place in a different canon, in a completely new system (mainly consoles), in a different perspective with different core gameplay, different effects on skills... And that's normal, as the reboot it was. You very well can consider them completely different games, and coming from Bethesda, we hardly could have expected something else in the first place.
In exchange, New Vegas IS a sequel because while keeping most of the design changes from Fo3, it makes some approach changes to better suit the original school of design, and most of all, it's set in roughly the same region, you meet either the remnants, stragglers and what have become of those original factions. It follows that story, and I don't know how can you really then call Fo2 a sequel as well considering that it has about the same connection to the previous as NV has to 2 itself. Fo1 and Fo2 having almost the exact same gameplay as well, only slightly more polished and advanced.

It technically could be called a sequel to Fo3, when only looking at it from the gameplay aspect.

Keep in mind, without the success of "muh turned-based combat" you wouldn't have a NV.
Without needing to wonder about parallel realities, that's the case with Fallout 3 as well, isn't it?
 
I mean, wouldn't you agree @nkchan16 that New Vegas is damn good expansion over 3? It's not at top quality like 1/2 was, but it definitely has overall elements/mechanics from the previous games and tries to work at it's best upon 3d game engine, which Bethesda enforced Obsidian to use.

As for the main subject, I'm still hanging on the edge what value does old single player games lose? Batman: Arkham Asylum is an old game, yet I like to come back to play it, same for Resident Evil 4 and Hitman: Blood Money. All of those are damn good sinlge player games that can be enjoyed even after years.
 
It is, it just doesn't mean that it's a bad thing. Same engine, a LOT of shared assets, a fair share of content like items, AI behaviours and entities are often 1:1. Hell, you can even find a lot of cut content from Fo3 if you tinker with it. You mention TTW, and that's another example of the games being so similar in a technical level that such a thing can be done.
Alright, fair enough.

@nkchan16 in that case, I won't object to your argument about NV being a TC mod to 3, and I understand what you meant with NV failing to stand up to the originals since I also highly prefer to replay Fallout 1&2 because of the basic and moment-to-moment gameplay is definitely my cup of tea. But goddamn, the sheer focus New Vegas has with narrative and quest designs, and its reactivity means it's actually much more worthy sequel to Fallout 1 than Fallout 2 in that regard, but it can't surpass Fallout 2 because of the gameplay. Being a TC mod and failing to execute RPG mechanics that can stand up to the originals doesn't mean it's less of sequel, especially compared to the abomination that is Fallout 3 and Fallout 4.
 
Bethesda has it right--as bad as I found Fallout 4, they did save single player gaming this year.
It is like saying that Sony saved console gaming by letting you play used physical copies of games. Oh wait! People are that retarded. Also, what do you mean by "save"? We, the consumers, decide whether a certain type of game is viable. These people aren't making food or water. If they all decided to release only multiplayer games, the people who hate that stuff wouldn't suddenly warm up to it.
 
Prey and Dishonored was made by Arkane Studios, The Evil Within by Tango Gameworks, Wolfenstein by MachineGames, Doom was made by Id Software. Only Fallout 4 and Skyrim were actually made by Bethesda themselves.

So how exactly have they "saved" any kind of gaming?

That's actually part of my issue with the "Bethesda" put downs. Bethesda doesn't exist anymore. It's become the publisher. It's like being angry at Random House for the contents of The Kingkiller Chronicles.
 
That's actually part of my issue with the "Bethesda" put downs. Bethesda doesn't exist anymore. It's become the publisher. It's like being angry at Random House for the contents of The Kingkiller Chronicles.

Sorry to butt in like this, but for clarity's sake, do you still stand by your initial statement that Bethesda "saved" single-player gaming this year? If so, I'd ask that you clarify exactly what you mean by that, since it seems to be the main point of contention here?
 
@CT Phipps
  1. Bethesda Game Studios - the guys that make ES and post-apocalyptic ES. Severely nepotistic.
  2. Bethesda Softworks - the guys that bled out development teams using moving milestones to buy them out. They publish the games.
  3. ZeniMax Media - the parent company.
Yeah, I hate the company from top to bottom.
 
Sorry to butt in like this, but for clarity's sake, do you still stand by your initial statement that Bethesda "saved" single-player gaming this year? If so, I'd ask that you clarify exactly what you mean by that, since it seems to be the main point of contention here?

Mostly, my reaction is that Bethesda seems to be putting out story-driven single player campaigns and has put out some shockingly good ones with real artistic merit (I'm weirded out to say Wolfenstein: The New Colossus is one of these) plus stories which are just fun to play.

I.e. Doom.

Given the fact so many games were ruined by multiplayer in the past few years I am not going to argue they've done a decent job of committing to this philosophy whereas other Triple A games have failed miserably.
 
Given the fact so many games were ruined by multiplayer in the past few years I am not going to argue they've done a decent job of committing to this philosophy whereas other Triple A games have failed miserably.
That says more about AAA gaming than it says about Bethesda. Also, what is AAA anyway? I don't think Nier: Automata or Persona 5 weren't cheap to make. Neither is something like Pokémon. What is exact range of the budget? Also, praising Bethesda for that is like praising an actor for not participating in sexual harassment just because he is from Hollywood.

Edit: It was late when I posted this.
 
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