Thing is just, the way how I see it is that Russia is taking a lot of criticism for its actions, rightfully of course, they are to blame for a lot here, but at the same time I am missing a clear picture about the west and their influence in the east European states particularly the Ukraine. As most of us know this conflict didn't started yesterday and out of nowhere. Again, I am NOT defending the Russians and their actions. But I think it would not hurt to be a bit more critical about our role in this conflict, in other words Europe and the US.
The problem with the "our role" line of argument leads to denying Ukrainians any and all agency. The Cold War mentality interprets the world as having two players and the rest being merely pawns in their hands. Ukrainians aren't pawns. They made a choice and when that choice was ignored by the president, they protested. When the president stomped on them, they protested more, until it became a revolution (which, as far as revolutions go, was pretty damn law-abiding).
The problem is that you write this from the perspective of a cozy spot in Germany, the most powerful state in Europe at the present point. All the positive things that come with the territory you take for granted and complain. Yes, politics aren't clear-cut, but even in the overwhelming grayness, there are lighter spots and darker spots.
Ukrainians want to get closer to the lighter spots - the European Union. They have a case study right over their borders. Poland was also a post-Soviet country and started at pretty much the same level as the rest of the bloc. It took us 25 years, but today we're a country that's rapidly going up and gaining power and influence we never would've dreamed of in 1989. We're a part of the Union, a full member of NATO, and have all the benefits and obligations that come with it.
We made our choice. So did Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, and other countries in what was once the Eastern Bloc. Now the Ukrainians are making the same choice, to get away from a brutal oligarchy ruled by a latter-day tsar that's tearing their country apart.
Why, exactly, would you deny them the ability to make a choice and force them back into the Russian camp
against their will?
It is very easy to paint one side as the big evil force in such a situation. But if that is always the case? Who knows. I don't. See, many people blamed the Soviet union for the Cuba crisis, probably for a reason, they have send nuclear weapons to Cuba, pretty much next to the US borders. But only later have we learned that the situation leading to the escalation was a lot more complex than just duh! Soviets! Russia is also a sovereign nation. And Russia does not exist in some kind of vacuum here.
And because Russia doesn't exist in a vacuum, we have to draw a line in the sand and tell them to fuck off.
The US and many European nations have a very sad track record of messing around with so called sovereign nations - see South America for example.
Like I said. It is my opinion that what ever is done, be it by Russia or the Western world, the real victim here is the Ukraine, because no one really gives a flying fuck about them. I still ask my self why the Ukraine for example deserves more support then lets say Chechnya, Georgia, or to not always talk about the Russians, Tibet and what is about the Uyghur people? And the many other oppressed minorities in China. Nations that have been oppressed and vandalized for who knows how many decades. I am curious, why is the Ukraine suddenly so special that they deserve more attention. Are the Ukrainian people more worth or something? Do they suffer more?
Who says we aren't doing anything? The problem with Chechnya and Tibet is that they are within the territory of Russia and China respectively and short of a military intervention, you aren't going to have much luck with either regime.
Georgia and other affected states have been provided with aid and are working together with "the West" on joining NATO and EU in the long run, no matter how long it takes. Ukraine isn't special, it's just the latest country to decide to side with that part of the world where people are so well off, they can afford to bitch and moan how terrible the West is.
Again. This is solely about geo politics. Strategical decisions. The Ukraine is simply to important for the US and Europe for different reasons. There is a chance here to weaken Russia and to get eventually close to their borders.
Uh, no. That's Russia's narrative. Before RusFed decided to act like an enemy of the West, it wasn't considered one. It was even considered to be a partner, before Putin decided to show that he prefers to be a tsar dealing with subjects, not an equal among peers.
The more we get involved in the Ukraine the more will Russia feel threatened. And I can understand why. We, and when I say we I mean the NATO in particular are simply not very trustworthy. The past has clearly shown that.
Why the fuck should we care what Russia thinks? Why isn't NATO trustworthy? Why the fuck are you advocating appeasement?
I am not justifying Russia. But I think I can at least understand some of their reasoning. And all I am saying is, that our leaders have most probably no real interest in improving the situation for the Ukraine, we would probably even leave the Ukraine as unstable as it is now or even sell it completely to Russia if it would be a benefit to us for example.
Anyone who is GENUELY interested in the well being of the Ukraine must allow the Ukraine to make their own decisions, without ANY influence or intervention either by Russia or Europe/US/NATO. But this is sadly not realistic. But all this talk about helping the poor Ukraine is only so long fun before it becomes a proxy war. And you have to ask your self if that is really something that will help the people down there in the long run.
What? Are you for fucking real? The very fact that we're getting involved in Ukraine and sanctioning Russia, taking an economic hit, shows we care. An unstable Ukraine is to no one's benefit, especially not to the West.
Ukraine made their decision. They want to join the West. End of story. Working towards membership in the EU and NATO will be good for them in the long run, as it was for Poland and the
rest of the Eastern Bloc. I'd understand it if EU was founded yesterday, but it's going to be 50 years old in three years time. And you have the perfect case studies of how the European Union affects post-Soviet country east of the Oder.
I mean, for fuck's sake, Crni. Substitute Ukraine in your post for Poland. Latvia. Lithuania. Estonia. Hungary. Czechoslovakia. Any other Soviet country. They all firmly sided with the west. The odd man out, Belarus, only didn't because it's ruled by a bona fide dictator. So either you're right and it's one big conspiracy where the West manipulates brainless Eastern slaves with wanton abandon, or maybe, just maybe, the tens of millions of people here do not want to be under the Russian thumb anymore.
They murdered enough of us already.
@
Tagaziel
Here is the
entire interview in its original format from CNN itself for your perusal. Now tell me that he did not said what he said.
I see no fault with President Obama or what he said. Given that it's an interview in 2015, it's natural to speak about brokering a power transition. Before Yanukovych's treason, it was a compromise between the protesters and the executive. Afterwards, it became a power transition by necessity.
Your automatic dismissal of alternative sources of information other than mainstream western media as unreliable and propagandistic, understanding that by opposition that mainstream western media is not, is staggering. I offer alternative points of view, yet your defense of the informational status quo is fanatical beond belief. What's wrong with listening to both sides seriously and then draw your own conclusions? You just dismissed a riot of hundreds of people in Kiev because it was presented by RT, even when the footage was taken in the ministry of defense itself in Kiev, and the people are yelling out against Poroshenko. What did RT just hired hundreds of actors and actresses, managed to infiltrat them in Kiev, or better yet, they built and exact set of the ministry of defense inch by inch and then they filmed this as false footage? You are just too much.
See, this is what you don't understand, Gonzo. I listened to both sides seriously and concluded that the pro-Russian side spews bullshit and manipulates the media. Of course, this makes me a fanatic, because I disagree with you equating the West with Russia. I don't expect you, an Argentinian, to understand how Russia is viewed in Eastern Europe. Do read up on how communists subjugated the region and you might get an inkling of why we don't particularly like Russia acting like an empire or me being told that Russia is as good as the West.
Because it really isn't.
