Mohamed2001
HATE NEWSPAPERS
Alrighty, so I don't know how to make a .gif, so here's a 28 sec 1 FPS Witcher 3 video:
http://puu.sh/rftv0/80c6e26224.avi
http://puu.sh/rftv0/80c6e26224.avi
Death of a Hobby.
- Thread starter TransgenderVaultDeweller
- Start date
valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
To be fair, not all forms of photography or movies are considered to be art. Special (niche) categories are classified as Art Film, or Art Photography, and these are considered to be art. Other forms, such as documentary movies or police stock photos for instance, are not.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
@valcik
Books unlike video games are generally considered a medium for intellectual. Society has created this imaginary hierarchy of high art and what video game that the general population are exposed to does play a role. Too many of the games advertised offer the same thing. If I thought that all books were romance novels with half-naked muscular men on the cover, I would think that books would be stupid. You might argue that that just makes me stupid and you would be right. However, you wouldn't call your elderly parents that don't know how to use the Internet stupid.
@valcik & @Crni Vuk
I'm not asking if video games are art. I believe art is form of expression and it isn't indication of quality. However, not everyone has accepted that yet and too many morons are trying get these people's approval. Most notability by emulating movies. Besides the idea that we all should already know by now of how video games shouldn't try to be movies but try to be video games, I don't think that there needs to be a magic video game that guides video games into the realm of high art. The real thing holding the medium back is lack of critical video game analysis. While I heavily criticized modern game design, game design is something needs a lot of consideration. There should be back and forth between designers and critics not ass-kissing.
@Mohamed2001
I tried.
Books unlike video games are generally considered a medium for intellectual. Society has created this imaginary hierarchy of high art and what video game that the general population are exposed to does play a role. Too many of the games advertised offer the same thing. If I thought that all books were romance novels with half-naked muscular men on the cover, I would think that books would be stupid. You might argue that that just makes me stupid and you would be right. However, you wouldn't call your elderly parents that don't know how to use the Internet stupid.
@valcik & @Crni Vuk
I'm not asking if video games are art. I believe art is form of expression and it isn't indication of quality. However, not everyone has accepted that yet and too many morons are trying get these people's approval. Most notability by emulating movies. Besides the idea that we all should already know by now of how video games shouldn't try to be movies but try to be video games, I don't think that there needs to be a magic video game that guides video games into the realm of high art. The real thing holding the medium back is lack of critical video game analysis. While I heavily criticized modern game design, game design is something needs a lot of consideration. There should be back and forth between designers and critics not ass-kissing.
@Mohamed2001
I tried.
valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Thinking about this, games I value the most are much closer to science than art. Dwarf Fortress for instance, the game created by professor of mathematics - graphics or music is pretty much non existent, mechanics are incredibly complex.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
Engineering is considered a science. Architecture is considered an art. Both are about building stuff.
Knowing + Feeling = Understanding
Knowing + Feeling = Understanding
That's why I am talking about the medium, you named a very specific branch. There still can be no doubt that movie making as a whole, is a form of art. Of course, that doesn't mean that everything you do is simply art just because it is a movie. Someone who's deciding to do art, might use movie making, or game development or writing or painting no clue, it's just a tool for the artist.
It becomes complicated when we talk about a very specific topic, like as you named documentaries or a certain movie. For example as I said, the process of movie making in general, is an 'art form', simply because many artists use it to make their art, same for gaming, albeit you will probably find much less 'pure' artists here. But is something like Terminator 5 'art' simply because it is a movie? I would argue, no because it is in my opinion an entertainment product so I don't classify it as art, despite the fact that you had artists working on it. Yeah well, that's the nice and bad thing about anything creative, there are no clear definitions and lines.
TransgenderVaultDeweller
"Fallout 4 adds to the lore"
It rather bothers me though, That the gaming media argues that games are a form of art. (Which they can be depending on the content used in that particular medium) But also give huge scores to games that are so fundamentally incompatible with the notion of arts. Such as cash cows like the call of duty franchise. Seems like a conflict of interest presents themselves there and when push goes to shove they will easily abandon their principles if it means getting a pay check from their boss/publishers.
Seriously, what the fuck.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
- They get paid in advertiser money.
- They get early review copies from game companies so they need to be nice to them.
- Their readers are easily butthurt.
skip to here.
Notice the Pip-boys. rule 2
rule 3
For rule 1, see any major video game website without ad block.
Again, the pursuit of making an art video game is misguided because the problem isn't the lack of video games with the right characteristics but the lack of an artistic perspective on the medium.
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CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
9/10 was considered too low for Uncharted 4. 69% dislikes.
Fuck game journalism.
Shaodeus
Still Mildly Glowing
Holy shit they consider a 3/5 for Fallout 4 a low score? The game would rate a 2 at best in my eyes.
Well, journalism has become bizarre.
Shaodeus
Still Mildly Glowing
Wow, that's just, wow. A 9/10 is a low score, honestly I am unsure whatever I would give New Vegas a 9/10 despite my love for the game, since it has a lot of bugs/glitches, some design errors and a lot of unfinished content.
Its fascinating how these people exist
CerberusGate
I should save my game in a whole new slot
This is why I am of the opinion that review scores are mostly useless. All they do is give something to advertise or show off when trying to sell a product. Reviews should be about presenting the game's selling points and drawbacks without some arbitary numerical score to sum it up because one simply cannot quantify an experience with numbers properly.
Shaodeus
Still Mildly Glowing
Agreed, when I watch a video game review it is to access the atmosphere and jist of the game somewhat, review scores can blow me.
Naw, it's not a conflict in my opinion. It's just that we are talking about entertainment here, which means that you will have some products which are made with a focus on art, while others are just made with money and sales in mind. For me, the context matters. Like I said, Terminator 5? No way is that movie art, despite of artist and creative people which worked on it. But something like Rubber Johnny? That's definetly ... art, as strange, as it might be. So I really don't have a problem with games like CoD being nothing more but comercial products, while something like Undertale, could be seen as art. I mean the medium for it self, is simply an artform. Not necessary every product that is made with it.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
I find this one of the better videos about video games being art.
If a toilet can be art, so can a video game.
A video game crash could really help.
If a toilet can be art, so can a video game.
A video game crash could really help.
TransgenderVaultDeweller
"Fallout 4 adds to the lore"
MAKE VIDEO GAMES GREAT AGAIN.
Okay, Enough memes 4 me. Will we see a video game industry crash? Depends, If major publishers and their fat cat board of directors get more greedy and games become more expensive to make, We might just see a crash followed by another Renaissance. Perhaps its like entropy where a constant battle of greatness and shitniss is perpetuated in a never ending battle in the cosmos. I don't think small indie games and better triple a games can divert the crash course this industry is going in. I think that is what got the entire SJW memes started when people started to attack places like IGN of corruption in game journalism and then a whole shitpost subversion tactic was employed to make it about gender and racial politics.
Okay, Enough memes 4 me. Will we see a video game industry crash? Depends, If major publishers and their fat cat board of directors get more greedy and games become more expensive to make, We might just see a crash followed by another Renaissance. Perhaps its like entropy where a constant battle of greatness and shitniss is perpetuated in a never ending battle in the cosmos. I don't think small indie games and better triple a games can divert the crash course this industry is going in. I think that is what got the entire SJW memes started when people started to attack places like IGN of corruption in game journalism and then a whole shitpost subversion tactic was employed to make it about gender and racial politics.
SarcasticGoodGuy
*R O T T E N*
I think triple A games can be great. But they have to be made by people that play games and are passionate about them. The Witcher 3 diaries show this very well, as do Harvey Smith's interviews on Dishonored. I liked Mass Effect as well, but I feel like even though it's one of my favourite game franchises it's been deteriorating since ME1. There's the disconnected build up in Mass Effect 2 to an awesome "rule of cool" mission riddled with plot holes- then there's the ending to ME3
. It lost a lot of the original staff along the way though, so I can only hope that's the reason for its descent.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
If I were to divide the different aspects of videogames, it would be Presentation, Gameplay, and Experience.
Mark Rosewater has explain flavor in depth here. Basically, flavor is the story explanation for the mechanics. HP represents your health. Water is strong against fire. Jet makes people with heart conditions die. Even games that aren't meant to represent anything like Tetris can serve as a mirror to how the mind works.
This is where all the failed film makers tried to make their mark. People like David Cage thinks doing QTE somehow makes you more invested in the story even if those QTE aren't fail-able. Ken Levine thinks the player just gets in the way of telling his story thus coined the term ludonarrative dissonance. While I think ludonarrative dissonance is bullshit, it is a valid concern in some cases like how the main character in the Order 1886 temporarily joined the rebels under the condition that they don't kill anyone and proceeds to kill everyone. Speaking of the Order 1886, the devs of that game said that between visuals, story, and gameplay they focus more on the story saying that it is easier fit gameplay into a story rather than make a story for game mechanic. That is probably why they slap in a generic 3rd person shooter into it.
- Presentation refers to things like graphics, sound, story, user-interface, etc.
- Gameplay refers to the interactive elements.
- Experience refers how the presentation and the gameplay mesh together e.g.: pacing, flavor, balance, etc.
Mark Rosewater has explain flavor in depth here. Basically, flavor is the story explanation for the mechanics. HP represents your health. Water is strong against fire. Jet makes people with heart conditions die. Even games that aren't meant to represent anything like Tetris can serve as a mirror to how the mind works.
This is where all the failed film makers tried to make their mark. People like David Cage thinks doing QTE somehow makes you more invested in the story even if those QTE aren't fail-able. Ken Levine thinks the player just gets in the way of telling his story thus coined the term ludonarrative dissonance. While I think ludonarrative dissonance is bullshit, it is a valid concern in some cases like how the main character in the Order 1886 temporarily joined the rebels under the condition that they don't kill anyone and proceeds to kill everyone. Speaking of the Order 1886, the devs of that game said that between visuals, story, and gameplay they focus more on the story saying that it is easier fit gameplay into a story rather than make a story for game mechanic. That is probably why they slap in a generic 3rd person shooter into it.
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valcik
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
I've never considered myself to be a gamer either, since playing video games is only a marginal part of my hobbies, most of the gaming communities I ran across are fine though. Big sites promoting and shilling for AAA games mostly suck because they tend to attract young gamepad-toting crowd, such places as Czech madbrahmin.cz dedicated to Fallout or Slovak oldgames.sk focused on retro-gaming are full of intelligent, educated, and friendly folks.
CaptJ
The Rival of Roquefort Hall
Recently, there was a push to replace the word gamer with the word player. However, gamer and player aren't completely equivalent. A player in the context of game manual or walkthrough refers to the person playing the game. A gamer refers to a person whose hobby is playing video games. Some people theorized that it is done to make the community more inclusive. What is rather clear is Sony promoting the term in the same way that Microsoft wants people to say "Bing it". When Sony announced that the PS4 could play used-games, it started the hashtag #This4ThePlayers. Sony literally created a hashtag calling itself pro-consumer for not being a spy box despite now forcing you to pay to play games online on the Internet subscription that you already paid for. People are easy to manipulate. The biggest mistaken that smart people make is thinking that people would act rational.
Considering that old games don't get advertised anymore, people still talking about it generally means that it has something good about it. At the very least, it weeds out those who photoshop Todd Howard's face into an image of Jesus to deify him as if he created Fallout.
BTW: that was from a the Making of Fallout 3 video.
You think I'm making a big deal about FO3 turning into the first Fallout game. Even Google think that. Google Fallout 1.
Going back to video games as a whole, it seems like whenever anyone makes a conjecture about a design of a video game it is generally accepted without any challenge.
- Character relative controls were added into survival horror games because it makes it scary.
- The lives system is outdated in 2D platformers.
- Dark Souls is more like a WRPG despite being a game made in Japan, mostly by Japanese people, and published by a Japanese company.
This reminds me of the infancy of Psychoanalysis. Sigmund Freud is extremely well respected; but despite how well thought out his theories were, they were mostly disproved. I'm not saying that game designers think that we are a bunch of motherfuckers (considering that Psychoanalysis is more science than art) but we aren't part of their focus group so we better put more effort tell them what we think instead of expecting them to find out.