FO2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod

[JimTheDinosaur]

edit: there's a more important reason still: giving melee characters a "free" defensive advantage over firearms characters would seem to throw everything off balance.

I don't think there should be any defensive bonus given to a melee character when facing character using firearms, any defensive bonus should be restricted to when the melee character is facing another HtH or melee character.

Of course, but the situation is still that a melee character gets a defensive bonus against hth attacks, while a firearms character doesn't. With the current set up, you'd get the situation where a firearms character would have to develop 1 or (more likely) 2 firearms skills, and a melee skill to help him defend against hth attacks.

A melee character just develops melee.

edit: hmm.. now I'm considering just making blocking primary stat dependent like evasion, cut skill out of the equation entirely.

 

[Glovz]

I'm not sure where the problem is - if an npc or player has no melee skill then tough not having any defensive skill against a HtH or Melee character.

Yes a Melee character/player gets to enjoy a defensive skill bonus and armor but they can't shoot worth a damn.

What I'm trying to say is to be careful and allow for differences in character/player skill allotment to cause significant difference between that different build types.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

I'm not sure where the problem is - if an npc or player has no melee skill then tough not having any defensive skill against a HtH or Melee character.

Well, the problem is that it doesn't work the other way around: a firearms character doesn't get a bonus defending against firearms. Though arguably the fact that a firearms character can maintain distance counts towards a defense bonus... hmm.

Yes a Melee character/player gets to enjoy a defensive skill bonus and armor but they can't shoot worth a damn.

But offense always stays the same in practice: while I'd like to see it different, you'll practically always adjust your playing style to your highest skill, not switch weapons based on the situation.

What I'm trying to say is to be careful and allow for differences in character/player skill allotment to cause significant difference between that different build types.

I agree, just don't think melee defense bonuses make for more interesting build types. Melee characters will only be even more insentivized to pump everything into melee and ignore the rest, which I don't like; but admittedly a block skill isn't much of an interesting supplement either.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

I've come to the conclusion that I really don't want to go the defensive skill route (for the reasons Glovz mentioned) and so I'll almost certainly stick with the first setup (with Light Melee included), unless someone has a better idea.

As for the blocking mechanic, I want to do something more or less like the dodge/block mechanic in Age of Decadence, meaning that they're mutually exclusive: either you try to block or you try to dodge. The issues I have with the way it works in AoD are (1) the player has no control over whether he tries to block or dodge, making it a lot less interesting for me, (2) again, don't like that it's skill-bound; defensive skills, especially when working automatically are just dull "make combat go better" boosts.

So I'm thinking along the lines of being able to toggle whether you try to block or dodge when attacked in hth. Both take into account reflexes (agility, perception and facing), and unspent AP (so not just blocking; unspent AP still doesn't play a roll in evading gunfire), but with the difference that blocking is somewhat easier to accomplish, but allows the opponent to "override" the block by simply being stronger. Such an override could either entirely remove the block, or simply weaken it into raising DT/DR by some value.

Also, I think different types of hth attacks are differently blockable/dodgeable:

Clubs/sledges: easy to dodge, hard to block
spears/knives: medium to dodge, medium to block
unarmed: hard to dodge, easy to block

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Well, making circles turned out to be easy enough. So, this is what I'm planning for radiation: at the beginning of the game variously sized elipses are created for the world map, with the bigger ones having a chance of getting a higher radiation zone within them, which, in turn, also have a chance of getting a higher radiation zone within them (so up to three levels). Towns (with the exception of Gecko and Broken Hills) won't possibly overlap with radiation zones.

If you have a geiger counter in your inven while travelling the world map, and you hit a radiation zone, you get to hear this sound (the first pattern for low, second for medium, third for high; I won't use the last pattern which sounds too xtreme for my taste).

So, here's an example of how the radiation map might turn out:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...pB6NpOb4TGA/w723-h773-no/FO2_WorldMaporig.jpg

They turned out looking like eggs, but you get the idea.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Bit of an update: shotgun's will probably get five types of ammo, two of dispersing pellets/darts (buckshot and flechettes), three of single fire slugs.

I'm also going to make ammo values a bit more "rational", by making it a bit more JA2 1.13-y. Right now, both in the original and the custom formulas, ammo values are all over the place; the custom ones have some logic to them, as in that AP is of course always more penetrating, but by how much this is the case fluctuates, meaning you can't ever tell just by looking at a gun's damage and the ammo type what the outcome'll be. JA2 1.13 simply makes them universal: if ammo's AP, it always has the same penetrating and damage rate. So, the difference between a 9mm and a 14mm pistol isn't reflected in the ammo values, but the weapons'.

On a less boring note, I've also found a pretty neat effect to simulate tracer rounds, so get ready for some 'nam flashbacks. Another thing I'm copying from JA2 1.13 is bullets passing through people, causing less damage and possibly hitting someone else. Once I get photoshop running, here's what I want to do (I've literally copied the values from JA2 1.13 because I found them to work really good):

FMJ/Ball/Brenneke/Energy Cells: Standard issue ammo, so 1*armor, and 1*damage (Green color)

AP/Flechette/Sabot/Caseless: Armor Piercing, superior to FMJ in almost all cases (exception would be against light armor where AP would probably pass straight thorugh), 0.75*armor, and 1*damage (Red color)

JHP/Foster/Buckshot: Expands easily, so 1.5*armor and 1.7*damage (Blue Color)

Gauss Ammo: Extra Armor Piercing, 0.5*armor, and 1*damage.

Tracer FMJ ammo: Same as regular FMJ (1*armor, 1*damage), but because every couple of rounds has a phosphorous trail, the shooter can adjust the aim on his bursts more easily: the THC dropoff after each consecutive round is halved (so its use is greatest when the burst amount is the largest). (Black color)

I hope this regularity finally makes the formula at least somewhat accessible (probably wrong in that though). I'll also try to add 1 or 2 ammo types to each caliber (again, 3 max per caliber): tracers for the big machinegun rounds (.223, 5mm and 7.62), and generally just a FMJ/JHP/AP trio for most of the others (9mm, .45, 14mm, 10mm, etc.). Or would this turn out to be overkill?

Some miscellaneous other weapon/ammo changes:

Caseless Ammo weapons have a three-round burst as their "single" fire which has the same AP cost as a regular single fire. If I understand the idea behind caseless correctly, the idea was that 3-round bursts would be insanely rapid, but full auto not so much. Which I base on this.

Laser weapons have the same effect as AP ammo in that it can pass through one person with a chance of hitting the next in line, except unlike AP ammo this of course won't lead to decreased damage for the first target.

Plasma weapons will have splash damage for one or more targets standing nearby, guess it'll be based on a ricochet angle who gets splashed?

Like already said, pulse weapons will have increased knockback chance.

 

[Drobovik]

Hey, Jim

Half the time I don't understand what you are writting about on here. Not that smart, unfortunately, but you are doing an AWESOME job, brother. Keep it coming and you will be another Legend of Fallout modding. I mean, overhauling all the game mechanics, that's gangster.

I tell ya, it's so damn complex, that the russains are puzzled at how everything works. I posted link to your mod on our forum and added a russian translation to your msg file.

There was an issue one of the guys mentioned. He had 1 pack of 24 10mm ammo then added another 24 10mm pack, and it changed to 10 instead. I hope you understand what I mean by that. So why does it happen?

Used the latest version - 1.48.

Thanks

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Hey, Jim

Half the time I don't understand what you are writting about on here. Not that smart, unfortunately, but you are doing an AWESOME job, brother. Keep it coming and you will be another Legend of Fallout modding. I mean, overhauling all the game mechanics, that's gangster.

I tell ya, it's so damn complex, that the russains are puzzled at how everything works. I posted link to your mod on our forum and added a russian translation to your msg file.

There was an issue one of the guys mentioned. He had 1 pack of 24 10mm ammo then added another 24 10mm pack, and it changed to 10 instead. I hope you understand what I mean by that. So why does it happen?

Used the latest version - 1.48.

Thanks

Haha, always wanted to puzzle Russians. Yeah, I know about that issue, but thanks anyway; as you might have noticed the next version is going the be an absolutely huge overhaul, so I don't really bother with small bug fixes, sorry about that.

 

[Glovz]

I hope this regularity finally makes the formula at least somewhat accessible (probably wrong in that though). I'll also try to add 1 or 2 ammo types to each caliber (again, 3 max per caliber): tracers for the big machinegun rounds (.223, 5mm and 7.62), and generally just a FMJ/JHP/AP trio for most of the others (9mm, .45, 14mm, 10mm, etc.). Or would this turn out to be overkill?

I applaud what you want to do, but now the game balance gods are getting worried. You need to limit what ammo is available, not just in quantity but in type as well. I would suggest choosing only a few weapons to offer such ammo diversity.

Or if multiple ammo types for all weapons is a must for you, then make certain types of ammo for certain weapons very limited and possibly each type of ammo only located in certain regions.

Make it interesting for the player to find a certain type of ammo for their favorite weapon and then let the smart player realize where that ammo for that weapon might make the most difference in the game.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

I applaud what you want to do, but now the game balance gods are getting worried. You need to limit what ammo is available, not just in quantity but in type as well. I would suggest choosing only a few weapons to offer such ammo diversity.

Not sure why that'd unbalance it though: is there a difference balance wise if a robber has half a clip of AP and half a clip of JHP on him or a full clip of one? Only thing I'm a bit worried about is that you can't mix and match ammo types, meaning that you'll end up with 1/4 full clips of one type a lot of the time, so you're probably right that I should keep it limited (I like the tracers though, they have a pretty cool effect now).

On a different subject, here's what I want to do with medical supplies and healing in general:

First Aid Kits and Doctor's Bags go from the 3 uses in the original, to 1 use per "material". You can use the First Aid Kit the way you ordinarily would (20% bonus to skill application), or you can use them to heal you while resting (you don't heal anymore without them): every hour you use up a First Aid "Kit", healing a certain number of hit points (spread out over the party if more than one is hurt) based on your or some other party member's first aid skill (or their doctor skill if it's 50% higher than their first aid skill). Doctor's "Bags" work slightly differently for healing crippled wounds during resting: the height of the doctor skill (or, if 50% higher, First Aid skill) decides how many "Bags" are needed to heal a crippled wound (lets say in five hours).

So, to make this work with the skills properly, the First Aid materials will have small quantities, but the Doctor's Bags/Materials will have to have pretty large quantities (try making a skill range of 1-300 work if the range of Doctor's Bags required is 1-4 or something). What this also means is that the Doctor's Bags won't be able to be used in their ordinary way (maybe I'll make an extra type of item if there's people who really liked the old application, but I doubt someone like that exists).

Hopefully this'll make sure that (1) doctor and first aid are more viable skills and (2) taking the long route to town is dangerous, as you'll run out of medical supplies and won't be able to heal yourself (given that stims are now mainly temporary).

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Glovz, here's what I was thinking about the mix and match issue:

All regular calibers (so not caseless, energy cells, whatever), have 2 types (so for each caliber either AP, JHP or FMJ gets left out). If the amount of ammo you have of one of these types drops below a certain value (which you can set in the .ini), then it gets mixed on a 1-1 basis with the other type. So, for instance, you have 100 bullets of 10mm AP and 10 bullets of 10mm JHP, then after mixing you have 90 bullets of 10mm AP and 20 bullets of JHP/AP alternating (so every even number fires as if AP, every uneven number as JHP).

The exception to the two caliber rule are shotguns (four calibers, of which the slugs (Regular/Sabot) and the pellets (Buckshot/Flechette) mix with each other), and 5mm rounds, which also have tracer ammo (the way this works is that the moment you have tracer ammo in your inven, normal 5mm mixing stops and they start mixing with the tracer rounds on a 1-3 basis. So, for instance, if you have 100 5mm JHP and 20 5mm JHP Tracers (pure), then after mixing you have 20 5mm JHP and 80 5mm JHP Tracers (mixed). You could in theory use the "pure" tracer rounds, but that'd be a bit of a waste as it doesn't give an additional bonus.

It might sound a bit confusing, but I think it's the only way to make a combination of ammo scarcity and ammo type variation work. Besides, makes sense to be mixing and matching in a post-apoc setting.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

What I'm doing now:

- the guns and bullets magazines are now used for upgrades (either by yourself if you, or someone in your party, have enough repair skill, or by Algernon). Every magazine has instructions for a specific upgrade in it (there's 12 types of them, gotta catch 'm all).

- You can now choose between dodging or blocking against melee attacks, which both get a bonus with unspent AP. Against ranged attacks, I've made it so that moving around gives a bonus: every hex moved during a turn adds a bonus to your dodge. I've also made facing important against both melee and ranged attacks (you can now adjust your facing for the cost of 1 AP by pressing the direction on the numpad).

- I've decided to cut out the exhaustion system thing, sad but true. There's just not enough I can do with it besides THC.

- I think I'll also (temporarily at least) cut out the new fleeing system. It's just too much work for something that has minimal impact on gameplay.

 

[Calahn]

I'll look into it in a bit, Pixote.

In the meantime, I have a question for you guys. I think I've figured out a way to make burst sizes selectable: you pick a certain size (say, 1/5 to 1/2 of the magazine), then the calcapcost script triggers a change in the weapon proto, and the AC-mod of the weapon's ammo (more spray = less hits). Afterwards, an npc triggering their own calcapcost, or to hit formula (they do so multiple times) resets the proto data to its original value.

Would this be considered at all interesting? Not too sure myself.

That's a little better than how Black Isle handled burst-fire, but the number of shots fired in a burst should NOT be determined by the size of the magazine. It should be 2, 3, 4, or 5 shots, not 1/5 the magazine, 1/4/ 1/3, etc.

With the P90c, to think that 12 rounds coul be fired in the span of 1 second is utterly ridiculous, never mind how the individual could maintain control of the weapon.

IMO, I think Black Isle were the masters of poor gameplay design. PST was a marked improvement over FO 1 and 2, but it was still rather obtuse.

 

[Sduibek]

Personally I'd love to see a Full Auto mode. Give us some Wasteland shit, let us burn 30 rounds into their chests. It could take, I dunno maybe +2 or +3 AP from Single mode. (so 7AP or 8AP usually). So worth it.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Now that I've finished categorizing tile materials, I still don't have a clear idea of what I'm going to with it. In terms of setting traps I was thinking this, but it's pretty arbitrary:

easiest: shrubs
easy: dirt/grass
medium: wood/carpet/matresses
hard: stone
hardest: metal

As for sneaking, I want to have sound play a role in which way a critter is facing. If it can hear you (influenced by distance/tile material/sneaking skill/critter perception, not sure if actively sneaking will be something that plays a role, or whether you're running/walking/standing) then it immediately turns in your direction, meaning they can spot you. This also works with non-humanoids of course (so avoiding the geckos when filling the still might become trickier). Of course, this also makes stealing trickier because if you're too loud they'll never have their backs turned to you. To avoid sneaking becoming an absolute must for a stealing character, I was thinking about also making room for a charismatic thief: if your charisma is higher than a (human) critter's intelligence (with some distance modifiers), then you're inconspicuous enough for them to ignore you, meaning they won't turn towards you. The material effects I was thinking about (even more arbitrary; no idea what I'm doing):

softest: stone/grass
soft: dirt/carpet
medium: metal
loud: shrubs/matresses
loudest: wood

Anybody got an idea on what I should do differently?

 

[Glovz]

Now that I've finished categorizing tile materials, I still don't have a clear idea of what I'm going to with it. In terms of setting traps I was thinking this, but it's pretty arbitrary:

easiest: shrubs
easy: dirt/grass
medium: wood/carpet/matresses
hard: stone
hardest: metal

As for sneaking, I want to have sound play a role in which way a critter is facing. If it can hear you (influenced by distance/tile material/sneaking skill/critter perception, not sure if actively sneaking will be something that plays a role, or whether you're running/walking/standing) then it immediately turns in your direction, meaning they can spot you. This also works with non-humanoids of course (so avoiding the geckos when filling the still might become trickier). Of course, this also makes stealing trickier because if you're too loud they'll never have their backs turned to you. To avoid sneaking becoming an absolute must for a stealing character, I was thinking about also making room for a charismatic thief: if your charisma is higher than a (human) critter's intelligence (with some distance modifiers), then you're inconspicuous enough for them to ignore you, meaning they won't turn towards you. The material effects I was thinking about (even more arbitrary; no idea what I'm doing):

softest: stone/grass
soft: dirt/carpet
medium: metal
loud: shrubs/matresses
loudest: wood

Anybody got an idea on what I should do differently?

The idea for sneaking sounds like overkill, but if you are going to go down this road then you'll need to take into consideration the material type of the armor the player (and possibly party members) is wearing. Ex. the player may be walking on stone/grass but while wearing power armor (metal) is going to sound different (possibly louder) then while wearing leather armor.

The trap idea sounds interesting, but I'm not a trap style player myself so I'm not sure if this adds fun or makes the skill tedious.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

The idea for sneaking sounds like overkill

How so? I always found it weird how critters were completely oblivious to your presence; having them notice you based on sound seemed like a nice solution to that problem.

but if you are going to go down this road then you'll need to take into consideration the material type of the armor the player (and possibly party members) is wearing. Ex. the player may be walking on stone/grass but while wearing power armor (metal) is going to sound different (possibly louder) then while wearing leather armor.

Good point.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

As I'm changing a couple of skills, I had to find a way to give critters new skill values by script. Doing so I realized how crappy I think the skill value calculations are, mainly because the base value/attribute multipliers ratio is often way too skewed towards the former: a 1 AG and 1 ST character starts with a melee skill of 55%, and a 10 ST and 10 AG character starts with 65%. This type of thing makes stat allocation completely irrelevant to the skills you get; it ends up being all about Intelligence in the end. Besides that there's also a couple of really weird attribute associations (Endurance helps your outdoorsman skill?). I decided to replace it all with something much more simple than the original: every skill has a base value of 10%, then a combination (always 4 in total) of associated attribute gets added to it:

Big Guns: ST + AG*2 + PE
Rifles: AG*2 + PE*2
Pistols/SMG's: AG*3 + PE
Heavy Melee: ST*3 + AG
Light Melee: ST + AG*3
Unarmed: ST*2 + AG*2
Doctor: PE*2 + IN*2
First Aid: PE*2 + IN + AG
Lockpicking: PE*2 + AG*2
Repair: IN*2 + PE + AG
Science: IN*3 + PE
Sneak: AG*4
Steal: AG*3 + PE
Traps: AG*2 + PE*2
Barter: CH*3 + PE
Leadership: CH*4
Outdoorsman: IN*2 + PE*2
Speech: CH*4

I need this type of regularity to make AI bonus skills work out properly. First, (non-partymember) critters get added to this a base bonus of 30. Then, every 400 xp value they have gives an additional attribute multiplier. So, Metzger's thugs get a pistol/smg skill of (a base of 10+6+7*3 and an additional 30+6*0.175+7*0.525)=71, while the strongest Enclave guards get (10+9+10*3+30+10*1.875+9*5.625)=148.

 

[Sduibek]

As I'm changing a couple of skills, I had to find a way to give critters new skill values by script. Doing so I realized how crappy I think the skill value calculations are, mainly because the base value/attribute multipliers ratio is often way too skewed towards the former: a 1 AG and 1 ST character starts with a melee skill of 55%, and a 10 ST and 10 AG character starts with 65%. This type of thing makes stat allocation completely irrelevant to the skills you get; it ends up being all about Intelligence in the end. Besides that there's also a couple of really weird attribute associations (Endurance helps your outdoorsman skill?). I decided to replace it all with something much more simple than the original: every skill has a base value of 10%, then a combination (always 4 in total) of associated attribute gets added to it:

Big Guns: ST + AG*2 + PE
Rifles: AG*2 + PE*2
Pistols/SMG's: AG*3 + PE
Heavy Melee: ST*3 + AG
Light Melee: ST + AG*3
Unarmed: ST*2 + AG*2
Doctor: PE*2 + IN*2
First Aid: PE*2 + IN + AG
Lockpicking: PE*2 + AG*2
Repair: IN*2 + PE + AG
Science: IN*3 + PE
Sneak: AG*4
Steal: AG*3 + PE
Traps: AG*2 + PE*2
Barter: CH*3 + PE
Leadership: CH*4
Outdoorsman: IN*2 + PE*2
Speech: CH*4

I need this type of regularity to make AI bonus skills work out properly. First, (non-partymember) critters get added to this a base bonus of 30. Then, every 400 xp value they have gives an additional attribute multiplier. So, Metzger's thugs get a pistol/smg skill of (a base of 10+6+7*3 and an additional 30+6*0.175+7*0.525)=71, while the strongest Enclave guards get (10+9+10*3+30+10*1.875+9*5.625)=148.

Cool, sounds good.

 

[Glovz]

Big Guns: ST + AG*2 + PE
Rifles: AG*2 + PE*2
Pistols/SMG's: AG*3 + PE
Heavy Melee: ST*3 + AG
Light Melee: ST + AG*3
Unarmed: ST*2 + AG*2
Doctor: PE*2 + IN*2
First Aid: PE*2 + IN + AG
Lockpicking: PE*2 + AG*2
Repair: IN*2 + PE + AG
Science: IN*3 + PE
Sneak: AG*4
Steal: AG*3 + PE
Traps: AG*2 + PE*2
Barter: CH*3 + PE
Leadership: CH*4
Outdoorsman: IN*2 + PE*2
Speech: CH*4

Small suggested changes:
Sneak: AG*3 + LK
Steal: AG*2 + PE + LK
Barter: CH*2 + PE + LK
Leadership: CH*3 + IN
Speech: CH*2 + IN*2

In my mind, even the most skillful have a little luck on their side.

Leadership and Speech while absolutely influenced by charisma, need some intelligence behind them as well.

Just suggestions though, I do like how you've allotted everything else.