FO2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod

Glovz said:
In my mind, even the most skillful have a little luck on their side.
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Good idea! Except instead of Barter (not sure how luck'd factor in that) I think I'll go with Traps, Outdoorsman and Repair.

Leadership and Speech while absolutely influenced by charisma, need some intelligence behind them as well.
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Thought about this too, but decided against it because, in practice, both of them will have too much intelligence involved in them anyway: Intelligence of course drives skillpoints, so by the time you have 100 Leadership, even if you have 10 CH, more than half will have come from Intelligence. Besides, Charisma definitely needs a boost relative to Intelligence, don't you think? Here's the revised list:

Big Guns: ST + AG*2 + PE
Rifles: AG*2 + PE*2
Pistols/SMG's: AG*3 + PE
Heavy Melee: ST*3 + AG
Light Melee: ST + AG*3
Unarmed: ST*2 + AG*2
Doctor: PE*2 + IN*2
First Aid: PE*2 + IN + AG
Lockpicking: PE*2 + AG + LU
Repair: IN + PE*2 + LU
Science: IN*3 + PE
Sneak: AG*3 + LU
Steal: AG*2 + PE + LU
Traps: AG + PE*2 + LU
Barter: CH*3 + PE
Leadership: CH*4
Outdoorsman: IN + PE*2 + LU
Speech: CH*4
 
On another note, the one-two handed switch mechanic I introduced a while back was a bit half-assed, and I've done a couple of improvements: (1) it's manual now instead of automatic, which made it less interesting: press left alt + h and you switch (on a side note, all the key bindings I'm working on involve left alt, which might become a problem for linux users), and this choice gets stored in a global variable and (2) the min ST value of the weapon adjusts based on whether you're using it one-handed or two-handed, so you don't have to do any calculations yourself. I've also changed the differences between the two a bit:

1-handed: costs 3 AP to reload (except magnums, unless they're speedloaded), cost 1 less AP to attack, gives a bonus to dodging or blocking, can use second weapon slot.
2-handed: adds a to-hit bonus with ranged weapons or a damage bonus with melee weapons.

I've also tweaked the calculation for the min strengths a bit, making 2-handed strength reqs a bit lower, and the one-handed ones either higher for rifles and big guns, or lower for pistols or knives. Some examples again:

[spoiler:ed6cf60eb7]
Old Min Str Values:
Laser Rifle: 6
Shotgun: 4
H&K G11: 5
Assault Rifle: 5
10MM SMG: 5
10MM Pistol: 3
Sledgehammer: 6
Spear: 4
Minigun: 7
Flamer: 6
Sniper Rifle: 5
Turbo Plasma Rifle: 6
Crowbar: 5
Combat Knife: 2
223 pistol: 5
New Min Str Values (Two-handed, One-handed):
Laser Rifle: 4, 17
Shotgun: 2, 8
H&K G11: 2, 10
Assault Rifle: 2, 13
10MM SMG: 1, 6
10MM Pistol: 1, 3
Sledgehammer: 4, 16
Spear: 1, 6
Minigun: 9, 34
Flamer: 6, 25
Sniper Rifle: 2, 13
Turbo Plasma Rifle: 4, 19
Crowbar: 1, 6
Combat Knife: x, 2 (knives can't be used with 2 hands)
223 Pistol: 1, 7
[/spoiler:ed6cf60eb7]
 
-RavenWolf- said:
I think some of the 2-handed ST requirements are too low, like Sniper/assault rifle, shotguns, and 223 pistol.
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I agree, but the problem is that you have the ridiculousness of wielding miniguns etc. without superhuman strength is affecting the entire formula: I can't raise the 2-handed requirements for shotguns without raising them for miniguns as well (unless I do something arbitrary like exempt big guns from the change, which I don't like doing).
 
JimTheDinosaur said:
-RavenWolf- said:
I think some of the 2-handed ST requirements are too low, like Sniper/assault rifle, shotguns, and 223 pistol.
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I agree, but the problem is that you have the ridiculousness of wielding miniguns etc. without superhuman strength is affecting the entire formula: I can't raise the 2-handed requirements for shotguns without raising them for miniguns as well (unless I do something arbitrary like exempt big guns from the change, which I don't like doing).
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Yes this is an issue of balance-vs-gameplay that I get caught in sometimes. You don't want too make STRreq too realistic otherwise it's no fun, and on top of that, Big Guns will be even less useful of a skill which would suck.

On the other hand, RavenWolf has the right idea, a review of STR required for each weapon is a good idea, I think some would make sense to be changed. (From the vanilla values anyway, maybe you already did that)
 
Alrighty, finally found a formula for 2-handed that works better; thanks again for pointing out the flaws to me, RavenWolf. I'm really liking it as it is now (except that shotguns are still too low): every strength from 1-10 has at least one gun associated with it (though now only 10mm pistols and mausers can be used properly with both hands at 1 ST). Here's the revised example:

[spoiler:3eb8be6db6]
Old Min Str Values:

Laser Rifle: 6
Shotgun: 4
H&K G11: 5
Assault Rifle: 5
10MM SMG: 5
10MM Pistol: 3
Sledgehammer: 6
Spear: 4
Minigun: 7
Flamer: 6
Sniper Rifle: 5
Turbo Plasma Rifle: 6
Crowbar: 5
223 pistol: 5

New Min Str Values (Two-handed, One-handed):

Laser Rifle: 5, 17
Shotgun: 2, 8
H&K G11: 4, 10
Assault Rifle: 4, 13
10MM SMG: 2, 6
10MM Pistol: 1, 3
Sledgehammer: 5, 16
Spear: 3, 6
Minigun: 10, 34
Flamer: 7, 25
Sniper Rifle: 4, 13
Turbo Plasma Rifle: 6, 19
Crowbar: 2, 6
223 Pistol: 3, 7 [/spoiler:3eb8be6db6]
 
Aw come on, where's Knife on that list? No wielding the knife two-handed like it's a sword? :lol:
 
So, I've been thinking about what to do with perception in hth combat. Right now it's just a THC bonus, which is kind of boring, so I think I'm going to make perception help you perceive an enemy's (defensive) actions. The higher your perception, the higher the chance is that you will know whether your opponent will try to block or dodge your next attack. You can then adapt to this by thrusting (against blocks) or swinging (against dodges). To accomodate this new system, I'd remove weapon type from the dodge/block equation, and make it all about two things: attack type (thrust vs. swing, which all hth weapons, including unarmed ones, will get), and character type (slow and strong makes for better blocking, weak and nimble for dodging). The AI will of course choose his attack based on your character type, but he'll never be so stupid to go for 100% one attack/defense type; he'll always switch it up now and again, always making perception important.

edit: hmm... now I'm starting to rethink the whole rock paper scissors aspect of perception here. I guess I'd make swing more accurate and thrust more penetrating (ap cost and damage already being covered by handedness), but that'd just mean you'd still always thrust against armored opposition, and dodge against a stronger opponent who'd always break through your block with his strength... have to think on this.
 
JimTheDinosaur said:
Sduibek said:
Aw come on, where's Knife on that list? No wielding the knife two-handed like it's a sword? :lol:
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Yup, no dual wielding grenades either!
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Insert jokes about people who play bowling by holding the ball between their legs and pushing with both hands.
 
Ooh, finally thought of a use for outdoorsman outside of travelling speed: healing powder, which was already a bit of an oddity in the new health system, will be replaced with something like "improvised healing materials" (herbal medicine, improvised splints and slings for bone fractures, stuff like that). You can choose to actively search for these materials at the cost of travelling speed (so you probably shouldn't do this when going through a radioactive zone), at which point they steadily accumulate in your inventory. Both the frequency at which you acquire them and their effectivity is determined by your outdoorsman skill. By effectivity I don't mean the amount you heal per material (like with first aid kits, this is determined by the first aid skill), but to what degree you can heal yourself and your party members: at a skill of 0 you can heal up to 0% of your max health, and at a skill of 200 you can heal up to 100% of your max health (I'm thinking of capping all the skills at 200 because it's just a lot easier to balance them that way; I'm pretty sure the highest skill req is at 121 (science for skynet) anyway).

I'm also thinking of moving back the progressive skill cost 1 grade (so 75-100=2 cost, 100-125 3 cost, etc.) and increasing the amount of skill points alloted (instead of 5 + 2*INT, I'd do 6 + 2.5*INT) so you're incentivized to create more varied builds.

Also, I think I've finally come up with a version of the kamikaze trait that should cause you to play the way you "should": move cost is decreased by half, but you're a lot easier to hit.


Edit: lowering the cap and the skill cost increments would also help me balance combat better: the AI has combat skills in the 75-150 range (in vanilla it's even 55-150), so if you can breeze on to 100 from the start, that's hard as hell to balance; 75 just makes more sense as the lowest benchmark.
 
JimTheDinosaur said:
Ooh, finally thought of a use for outdoorsman outside of travelling speed: healing powder, which was already a bit of an oddity in the new health system, will be replaced with something like "improvised healing materials" (herbal medicine, improvised splints and slings for bone fractures, stuff like that). You can choose to actively search for these materials at the cost of travelling speed (so you probably shouldn't do this when going through a radioactive zone), at which point they steadily accumulate in your inventory. Both the frequency at which you acquire them and their effectivity is determined by your outdoorsman skill. By effectivity I don't mean the amount you heal per material (like with first aid kits, this is determined by the first aid skill), but to what degree you can heal yourself and your party members: at a skill of 0 you can heal up to 0% of your max health, and at a skill of 200 you can heal up to 100% of your max health (I'm thinking of capping all the skills at 200 because it's just a lot easier to balance them that way; I'm pretty sure the highest skill req is at 121 (science for skynet) anyway).

I'm also thinking of moving back the progressive skill cost 1 grade (so 75-100=2 cost, 100-125 3 cost, etc.) and increasing the amount of skill points alloted (instead of 5 + 2*INT, I'd do 6 + 2.5*INT) so you're incentivized to create more varied builds.

Also, I think I've finally come up with a version of the kamikaze trait that should cause you to play the way you "should": move cost is decreased by half, but you're a lot easier to hit.
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Not sure if this applies to Fallout 2 at all, but things I've done with Outdoorsman thus far:

DESERT: Dehydration much more dangerous and can give rads (we talked about this @ Codex) , and also,

MOUNTAIN: Rockfalls are going to be worse -- critical failure means all limbs are crippled, easier to cripple limbs, etc. Also the check against the skill increases with player level, so that it more-or-less only becomes easier if you actually put points into Outdoorsman: roll_vs_skill(OUTDOORSMAN, ((HAS_SURVIVAL_PERK * 20) - (PLAYER_LEVEL * 5))

CRIT SUCCESS: On the other side, if you critical success on Outdoorsman check in either case you get the "find a small spring" msg from the vanilla files and get all your canteens refilled.

I'm sure some people will say crippling is just an annoyance, but in FO1 Vanilla, rockfalls were an ignorable annoyance, now at least they're a non-ignorable annoyance :P
 
Sduibek said:
DESERT: Not sure if this applies to Fallout 2 at all, but one thing I've done with Outdoorsman is make dehydration much more dangerous (we talked about this @ Codex) , and also,

MOUNTAIN: Rockfalls are going to be worse -- critical failure means all limbs are crippled, easier to cripple limbs, etc. Also the check against the skill increases with player level, so that it more-or-less only becomes easier if you actually put points into Outdoorsman: roll_vs_skill(OUTDOORSMAN, ((HAS_SURVIVAL_PERK * 20) - (PLAYER_LEVEL * 5))

CRIT SUCCESS: On the other side, if you critical success on Outdoorsman check in either case you get the "find a small spring" msg from the vanilla files and get all your canteens refilled.

I'm sure some people will say crippling is just an annoyance, but in FO1 Vanilla, rockfalls were an ignorable annoyance, now at least they're a non-ignorable annoyance :P
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They cut these events out of FO2. I guess I could recreate them, but I have to admit that I never really liked the idea of food/water/random damage type gameplay elements. Tastes differ I guess, but it's just way too much micromanaging for me.
 
Ok, it could be that I'm just playing too much of that AoD beta/demo/whatever it is, but I've tried implementing hth counter attacks, and they work pretty damn good. Animations, damage, everything. So here's what I was thinking: you get the option whether to block (raising DT against hth attacks) or dodge (raising dodge, herp) and you get the additional choice whether to attempt a counter attack or not. If you choose to try that, the effectiveness of your block or dodge gets cut in half, but if your dodge or block succeeds (i.e. the opponent misses or hits you for 0 damage), then you get to make a counter attack, which has the same to hit chance and damage formula a regular attack would have (if you have a gun in your hand you just punch).
 
In other news, a problem I've been having is that I don't have a way to make flares work in my new to hit formula, so I need to find some alternative. I think I'm going with a flashlight: spend 2/3 AP (and one small energy cell?) to create a wonderful cone of light: anyone in it gets treated as if in daylight. The moment your turn ends/you switch target/you move the cone dissappears. Another thing I'm considering is some kind of temporary blinding effect: a chance of lowering the perception of the first one encountered by the beam of light standing towards you for the next turn. Not sure what this chance should be based on tho... maybe target endurance?

In general, I think each hit bodypart should ideally have a good chance of a temporary penalty attached like in AoD, so that aiming for a bodypart has more of a tactical element to it:

torso: nothing?
arms: drop weapon
legs: knockdown
head: knockout
eyes: blinding (-2 PE for one turn? seems weak, but should probably occur every eye hit that isn't permanently blinding)
groin: keeling over, or something (+2 AP for attacking next turn)

Finally, here's the flashlight in action:

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAA4U/Oq401dzIKg8/w640-h480-no/scr00000.bmp (NMA doesn't like google plus apparently, so you gotta click)
 
Bit of a progress update with a couple of videos and some info on what I want to do with damage/attack type:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDrAK2S3pzM[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_n2PQCQeMQ[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDnqj-XrfC4[/youtube]

HTH weapon types:

melee damage=ST/2 (this simply gets added to the weapon's damage, not just the upper range like in the original game)
sledges/clubs: 2*melee damage (+1 AP cost)
unarmed: 1.5*melee damage
spears: 1*melee damage
knife: 0.5*melee damage (chance of armor bypassing increases based on THC)

Couple of exceptions to this scheme: the Ripper always pierces a percentage of armor, Power Fists cost +1 AP, and the cattle prods don't take any melee damage into account.

Damage types:

electricity: increased knockout chance
pulse: increased knockdown chance
laser: can pass through opponents (e.g. if you hit someone with 20 laser damage, and they have 4 DT and 25% DR against laser, then 12 damage hits him and also passes through him and has a chance (for convenience it's the same chance as before, except with changed distance modifiers) of hitting the target behind him for that amount, and so on).
plasma: does splash damage to those standing right next to the target.

Attack types:

knives/spears: swing gives higher base damage and THC, thrust adds armor piercing based on strength and raises crit chance.
sledges/clubs: swing produces knockback, thrust doesn't.
unarmed: like said before, the special unarmed attacks are now "flurries" for punches and roundhouses for kicks; which you can do with all unarmed weapons as well. These attacks are performed at a penalty to melee damage.

Changing "handedness":

The stuff I said earlier (two handed melee increases damage, ranged THC, etc.) still applies, but a couple of things are added:

knives: can't wield them with two hands of course, so changing the handedness simply replaces the thrust attack with a throw attack, so that you can throw all knives (throwing knives do get a THC bonus when thrown).
spears: same as with knives going to two handed replaces throwing with a swing, except that all the other bonuses/penalties for handedness do apply.
[/youtube]
 
Next in the line of ideas shamelessly lifted off AoD is using poison on bladed weapons to give them a limited amount of poisoned hits. I ended up with a bit of a weird system because I can't force switches between weapons without the game going all buggy: all bladed weapons get "ammo" which automatically replenishes each strike. But if you press a certain key with a bladed weapon in your active hand and poison in your inven, then the ammo becomes limited (but only substracts on a hit) until it reaches zero, which turns the unlimited, non-poisonous ammo back on.

I'm also thinking about adding an electro gun with FOT's spasm gun artwork, because I think electricity is a bit of sad damage type at the moment. Just to make it a bit different, I want to make it have an area effect if the target is standing on a metal tile.
 
Has work continued on this mod? It looks like we may have lost Jim with the board switch. I hope not. While his mod is too far removed from the vanilla game for my tastes, I do love some of his ideas and I find his mods fascinating.
 
Dravean said:
Has work continued on this mod? It looks like we may have lost Jim with the board switch. I hope not. While his mod is too far removed from the vanilla game for my tastes, I do love some of his ideas and I find his mods fascinating.
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Still working on it chief. Just haven't posted a lot of updates here because I've found that I can elicit more active discussion over at the codex. So in case you want to read lots and lots of walls of text and see what's happening, check here! I'll try and put a new version out in a month or so, but no promises and all that.
 
Just a short update to convince <strike>myself</strike> people that I'm still hard at work on this. Damage calculations are almost complete, just have to do a long list of minor-medium changes still. Also, to avoid the endless amount of annoying key-bindings that are stacking up, I've copied the added interface options of the Fallout of Nevada mod and will assign my own stuff to them if the FoN team lets me (temporarily) use their icons.

After a long time of not really being sure what to do with hth defense outside of the abstract (dodging/blocking and counterattacking), I've finally reached what I think is a happy place. I'm bringing back the skill based defence, and to avoid the problem of how to deal with ranged weapons in this context, I've changed the combat skills (again) a bit so that instead of light melee and heavy melee, it's one-handed melee (so knives and clubs) and two-handed melee (spears and sledges). What this allows me to do is neatly couple them to the ranged skills:

Defending with pistol or smg: defense bonus based on one-handed melee skill.
Defending with rifle: defense bonus based on two-handed melee skill.
Defending with big gun: no defense bonus.

This also means the handedness switching thing is definitely out of the window (one exception is through weapon modifications: turning a shotgun into a sawed-off makes it one-handed).

You can then either try to block, which adds DR based on ST relative to enemy ST (mainly to hopefully allow high ST, low AG melee builds), or try to dodge an enemy attack (AG-based). The enemy can then use his skill to bypass your defence; in the case of dodge the way that's done is obvious enough (the higher the enemy's skill is than yours, the higher his THC is), and in the case of a block, the higher an enemy's skill is than yours, the more chance he has of bypassing your block and doing full damage.

You can also sacrifice half of your skill-based defense bonus to prepare for a counter-attack: if your block or dodge succeeds, you perform a counter-attack (if you counter-attack with a ranged weapon, you do that based on the associated melee skills I just listed; not sure yet what damage ranges they'll get, but might be fun to do something like a bayonet attachment in the future to increase it).
 
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