FO2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod

Glovz said:
@Jim
I'm still at work so I haven't had a chance to review things thoroughly, but when you list single DT and DR values are you saying these values would be for Normal type damage or for all types of damage? Maybe I misunderstood something in my quick glance.
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The examples I listed were for normal only, but based on the stuff you mentioned there can be a lot of variation (floaters no bonus for fire, etc.). I just think it'd be better for simplicity's sake to just keep everything in the orders I mentioned (i.e. +1, 2, 3, etc. DT, corresponding with +10, +20, +30 for DR).

In other news, I'm planning on two new features:

- Shotguns: I've settled on higher damage up close, and lower damage at long range to give them more of a shotgun-y feel.

- Needler pistols: I think what this is meant to mimic is poison damage, so it might be fun to actually make it so. I'll experiment with a combatdamage hookscript that looks whether the armor was penetrated, then removes all damage and replaces it with a range of poison damage (more for regular rounds, less for AP rounds). Might actually make poison resistance useful for a change.

EDIT: Hmm.. forgot how slow the poison works in the game. Might have to devise something different, but still incorporating poison resistance.
 
JimTheDinosaur said:
Glovz said:
Hi Jim, I thought I would add my idea for derived DT/DR values here given if it were to be implemented, it would have to be by you or someone else. I have looked into the scripting and it's beyond me. :(
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Very interesting. I spent a lot of time while doing the whole fixed hp thing going over possible formulas for non-human hp, but that always ended up in the crapper because I just had too few variables to work with. Introducing DR and DT into the equation could be a brilliant move.

I do think you'd definitely need to be less conservative than your being right now. For instance, going for ST/4 for weak critters wouldn't make sense because they'd probably have ST <4>STRONG categories (just have the EN/ST values speak for themselves), maybe keeping only the BOSS category, and bumping the values (something like EN*3 and ST/2).


second; this part is tricky, random pick if the critter will get a bonus to DT, DR, or both (neither should not be an option), then randomly choose the value from the assigned range and add it or subtract it from the DT and/or the DR value,
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I don't get this part, why should it be randomized at all? Randomization wouldn't be really possible anyway, because it would necessarily be reset on every map entry.

Thus you have derived DT and DR value, helping to make each critter unique. The only issue I have with this is I'm not sure it can be applied to all; as in the case of Frank H., or if this can be applied to the player and companions.
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Yeah, like I said, the unique part is probably not possible. It would simply get shuffled on each map entry. You could do it for party members because they get saved, but wouldn't this system best work for non-human critters exclusively?
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I stayed conservative because I was worried some critters might become too difficult compared to the player's expectation from what the original game set, plus those values you focused on would be in addition to what had been set for the critters base DT/DR value.

I also get why randomization would not work, so that part would need to be reworked. I'll have to give it some thought.

EDIT:
Maybe where I had random values it could be:
DT=DT+(AC/10) OR 30 (whichever is less)
DR=DR+(AC/2) OR 80 (whichever is less)
 
JimTheDinosaur said:
Okay, I've got a draft for a unified field theory of non-armor wearing critter health (the simpler we keep it, the more useful it might be for modders wanting to add extra critter types quickly):

Just four variables are needed:

1) Experience value/10 sets the hp value.
2) Endurance*3 adds to the hp value, and *3 sets the DR value
3) Strength*1 adds to the hp value, and /2 sets the DT value
4) Kill type (i.e. gecko, deathclaw, etc.) adjusts the DT/DR values according to some of the principles you layed out (probably simplified to steps of *1 for DT and *10 for DR).
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Ok - I get where you're coming from now, but the final values would need to be checked for all critters (excluding humans and mutants assuming they are treated differently), I have a feeling the end values will not turn out well in some cases. That's why I was taking the approach of setting (or resetting, depending on how you look at it) base values of DT/DR for all, and then adjusting for levels of toughness.

I'd hate to have to build a calculator for all the critters in the game, but that might be the only way to see the end values and tweak formulas before implementing.

BTW, though it may not have been clear in my method, I think max. DR should be capped at 80, anything higher just feels unreasonable, especially since my method was already raising DT values higher than what they were on average.
 
Glovz said:
I stayed conservative because I was worried some critters might become too difficult compared to the player's expectation from what the original game set, plus those values you focused on would be in addition to what had been set for the critters base DT/DR value.

I also get why randomization would not work, so that part would need to be reworked. I'll have to give it some thought.

EDIT:
Maybe where I had random values it could be:
DT=DT+(AC/10) OR 30 (whichever is less)
DR=DR+(AC/2) OR 80 (whichever is less)
Click to expand...

Of course, AC! I'd completely forgotten about that: that could be the missing variable that no longer necessitates the arbitrary +1/+2, etc. "toughness" bonus. Now all I'd need to do is adjust critter type specific bonusses (floaters for electric, fire geckos for fire, etc.).

I think the big divergence on conservatism comes from the fact that I can't afford being conservative: fixed HP and eliminating AC means that any balance that might have been present in critter design has gone flying out of the window anyway so I have the liberty to do something drastic to rectify it.

I'll do some recalculating with the added fifth variable and see if some interesting stuff comes out.
 
New draft:

five variables are needed:

1) Experience value/10 sets the hp value.
2) Endurance*3 adds to the hp value, and *3 sets the DR value
3) Strength*1 adds to the hp value, and /2 sets the DT value
4) Extra AC (so AC on top of the base agility bonus) raises DR*1 and DT/5.
5) Finally kill type (i.e. gecko, deathclaw, etc.) can adjust the DT/DR values according to some of the principles you layed out (e.g. fire geckos and floaters get special immunities).

First example, part of the rat family tree (all DT's are for normal damage for the examples):

Code: 
Original:

Rat: 6 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
Pig Rat: 9 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
Mole Rat: 26 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
Greater Mole Rat: 36 HP, 2 DT, 25 DR
Mutated Mole Rat: 72 HP, 4 DT, 30 DR

Code: 
With Revised Formula:

Rat: 6 HP, 0 DT, 3 DR
Pig Rat: 14 HP, 1 DT, 6 DR
Mole Rat: 26 HP, 2 DT, 9 DR
Greater Mole Rat: 34 HP, 6 DT, 27 DR
Mutated Mole Rat: 52 HP, 5 DT, 25 DR

And for part of the Gecko tree:

Code: 
Original:

Little Gecko: 25 HP, 0 DT, 20 DR
Tough Little Gecko: 35 HP, 0 DT, 20 DR
Golden Gecko: 45 HP, 2 DT, 25 DR
Tough Golden Gecko: 65 HP, 2 DT, 25 DR

Code: 
With Revised Formula:

Little Gecko: 18 HP, 3 DT, 17 DR
Tough Little Gecko: 20 HP, 3 DT, 17 DR
Golden Gecko: 28 HP, 6 DT, 24 DR
Tough Golden Gecko: 37 HP, 6 DT, 24 DR

Deathclaw tree:

Code: 
Original:

Immature Deathclaw: 50 HP, 2 DT, 15 DR
Tough Deathclaw: 310 HP, 10 DT, 50 DR

Code: 
Revised new Formula:

Immature Deathclaw: 49 HP, 4 DT, 18 DR
Tough Deathclaw: 208 HP, 10 DT, 54 DR

Various weak critters:

Code: 
Original:

Radscorpion: 26 HP, 2 DT, 0 DR
Spore Plant: 40 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
Mantis: 16 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR

Code: 
Revised New Formula:

Radscorpion: 36 HP, 3 DT, 18 DR
Spore Plant: 31 HP, 2 DT, 18 DR
Mantis: 25 HP, 1 DT, 15 DR

Various strong critters:

Code: 
Original:

Sentry Bot Mark II: 120 HP, 13 DT, 50 DR
Robobrain: 80 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
Floating Eyebot: 60 HP, 4 DT, 30 DR
Floater: 175 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
Centaur: 150 HP, 4 DT, 35 DR
Alien: 120 HP, 6 DT, 40 DR

Code: 
New Formula:

Sentry Bot Mark II: 93 HP, 9 DT, 49 DR
Robobrain: 60 HP, 7 DT, 44 DR
Floating Eyebot: 51 HP, 3 DT, 31 DR
Floater: 107 HP, 8 DT, 44 DR
Centaur: 93 HP, 6 DT, 36 DR
Alien: 79 HP, 9 DT, 46 DR

Super Mutants:

Code: 
Original:

Super Mutant: 100 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
Strong Super Mutant: 110 HP, 8 DT, 40 DR

Code: 
New Formula (after adding 4 ST):

Super Mutant: 72 HP, 10 DT, 44 DR
Strong Super Mutant: 83 HP, 11 DT, 47 DR

I think it looks good, what do you guys think?

Edit: I accidentally edited my first formula, so you unfortunately can't compare it with that one anymore.

Edit2: Hmmm.. if anything it's working too well, and is effictively indistinguishable from the original (except for the in the end inconsequential changed HP to DT/DR ratio). Anyway, it's nice to have a formula lying around if I ever get to balancing things.

Edit3: I'll just make all the variables customizable! That way it'll become a more interesting difficulty slider.
 
@Jim
The only critter's numbers I'm concerned about is the Radscorpion. You find many in the early part of the game and it's numbers might be too much.

That's just a gut feel.
 
Sure, but like I said, I'm guessing the best thing for fixed HP to work would be better early enemies and weaker late ones (like Aliens and Floaters). Which is more or less how it works now.

But I'm in the process of making all the values configurable. If you want radscorpions weaker you can just boost the importance of experience value and drop that of attributes (Radscorpions have pretty high ST and EN for some reason).
 
By the way, Glovz, Radscorpions are now a bit more easy because I noticed that they're the only ones with a floor normal DR/DT.

One minor funny thing I noticed while going through critter DR/DT data for way too long was that Greater Mole Rats are Mole Rats wearing Leather Armor. I'll look at them in a whole different way from now on.
 
JimTheDinosaur said:
By the way, Glovz, Radscorpions are now a bit more easy because I noticed that they're the only ones with a floor normal DR/DT.

One minor funny thing I noticed while going through critter DR/DT data for way too long was that Greater Mole Rats are Mole Rats wearing Leather Armor. I'll look at them in a whole different way from now on.
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Glad to hear about the radscorps and there is more oddness in the proto files. Very few match up in values to what you would think by just looking at the critter's image. :)
 
I'll look into it in a bit, Pixote.

In the meantime, I have a question for you guys. I think I've figured out a way to make burst sizes selectable: you pick a certain size (say, 1/5 to 1/2 of the magazine), then the calcapcost script triggers a change in the weapon proto, and the AC-mod of the weapon's ammo (more spray = less hits). Afterwards, an npc triggering their own calcapcost, or to hit formula (they do so multiple times) resets the proto data to its original value.

Would this be considered at all interesting? Not too sure myself.
 
Changed the values around a bit again to boost some HP and drop a bit of DT/DR (with the current formula, I'm afraid every late level critter will become so armored that non-AP ammo will become worthless). This'll be in the next version. You could change it back again easily (or change further) of course.


1) Experience value/10 sets the hp value.
2) Endurance*5 adds to the hp value, and *2 sets the DR value
3) Strength*1 adds to the hp value, and /5 sets the DT value
4) Extra AC (so AC on top of the base agility bonus) raises DR*1 and DT/5.
5) Finally kill type (i.e. gecko, deathclaw, etc.) can adjust the DT/DR values according to some of the principles you layed out (e.g. fire geckos and floaters get special immunities).

Changed from:

[spoiler:04aa4ccff6]
1) Experience value/10 sets the hp value.
2) Endurance*3 adds to the hp value, and *3 sets the DR value
3) Strength*1 adds to the hp value, and /2 sets the DT value
4) Extra AC (so AC on top of the base agility bonus) raises DR*1 and DT/5.
5) Finally kill type (i.e. gecko, deathclaw, etc.) can adjust the DT/DR values according to some of the principles you layed out (e.g. fire geckos and floaters get special immunities).[/spoiler:04aa4ccff6]

So this is what changes for the SM group:


Code: 
Original:

Super Mutant: 100 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
Strong Super Mutant: 110 HP, 8 DT, 40 DR

Previous Formula (after adding 4 ST, and 3 EN):

Super Mutant: 81 HP, 10 DT, 53 DR
Strong Super Mutant: 92 HP, 11 DT, 56 DR

Newest Formula (after adding 4 ST, and 3 EN):

Super Mutant: 103 HP, 6 DT, 42 DR
Strong Super Mutant: 116 HP, 6 DT, 44 DR

Various strong critters:

Code: 
Original:

Sentry Bot Mark II: 120 HP, 13 DT, 50 DR
Robobrain: 80 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
Floating Eyebot: 60 HP, 4 DT, 30 DR
Floater: 175 HP, 5 DT, 40 DR
Centaur: 150 HP, 4 DT, 35 DR
Alien: 120 HP, 6 DT, 40 DR
Tough Deathclaw: 310 HP, 10 DT, 50 DR

Previous Formula:

Sentry Bot Mark II: 93 HP, 9 DT, 49 DR
Robobrain: 60 HP, 7 DT, 44 DR
Floating Eyebot: 51 HP, 3 DT, 31 DR
Floater: 107 HP, 8 DT, 44 DR
Centaur: 93 HP, 6 DT, 36 DR
Alien: 79 HP, 9 DT, 46 DR
Tough Deathclaw: 208 HP, 10 DT, 54 DR

Newest Formula:

Sentry Bot Mark II: 109 HP, 6 DT, 41 DR
Robobrain: 76 HP, 5 DT, 36 DR
Floating Eyebot: 65 HP, 2 DT, 24 DR
Floater: 123 HP, 5 DT, 36 DR
Centaur: 107 HP, 4 DT, 29 DR
Alien: 93 HP, 6 DT, 39 DR
Tough Deathclaw: 224 HP, 7 DT, 46 DR

Various weak critters

Code: 
Original:

Rat: 6 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
Mole Rat: 26 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
Little Gecko: 25 HP, 0 DT, 20 DR
Golden Gecko: 45 HP, 2 DT, 25 DR
Radscorpion: 26 HP, 2 DT, 0 DR
Spore Plant: 40 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR
Mantis: 16 HP, 0 DT, 0 DR

With Previous Formula:

Rat: 6 HP, 0 DT, 3 DR
Mole Rat: 26 HP, 2 DT, 9 DR
Little Gecko: 18 HP, 3 DT, 17 DR
Golden Gecko: 28 HP, 6 DT, 24 DR
Radscorpion: 36 HP, 3 DT, 18 DR
Spore Plant: 31 HP, 2 DT, 18 DR
Mantis: 25 HP, 1 DT, 15 DR

With Newest Formula:

Rat: 8 HP, 0 DT, 2 DR
Mole Rat: 32 HP, 0 DT, 6 DR
Little Gecko: 24 HP, 1 DT, 14 DR
Golden Gecko: 34 HP, 4 DT, 21 DR
Radscorpion: 48 HP, 1 DT, 12 DR
Spore Plant: 43 HP, 1 DT, 12 DR
Mantis: 35 HP, 0 DT, 10 DR
 
Now that I've finally decided to do the damage calculations (i.e. steal the ones Nirran did), I've spent some time thinking about how I would change perks and traits to make more than 10% viable/interesting. I've put my ideas (alongside the original effects) in a pdf and if people would read it and give some comments/come up with new ideas (a lot of them I simply didn't have a clue), then I'd be much obliged.

You can view it here.
 
Bonus HtH Damage --- adding the +2 to both min. and max. base damage (before damage calculation, if possible) should have more impact than adding 20% after damage calculation

Comprehension --- you'll have to ensure somehow that changes are not lost when companions level up

Living Anatomy --- it's not clear what you plan to do here

I assume any you did not mention a change for will remain the same.
 
Glovz said:
Bonus HtH Damage --- adding the +2 to both min. and max. base damage (before damage calculation, if possible) should have more impact than adding 20% after damage calculation.
Click to expand...

In the beginning, yeah, but once you are doing 20-40 + Strength Bonus with a mega power fist, it'll be more useful. I just don't like these perks/traits which are clearly designed to be more useful in the beginning game than later: this might have made sense with the inverted difficulty curve of the original game, but with my changes it'll become weirder I think.

Comprehension --- you'll have to ensure somehow that changes are not lost when companions level up
Click to expand...

Yeah, though I'm planning on nixing the old npc levels though and replace it with a more smooth system of their skills going up each of your levels and you having some control via dialogue over which skill they should concentrate on.

Living Anatomy --- it's not clear what you plan to do here
Click to expand...

The idea is what I've talked about before: the flat bonus is a bit boring and doesn't make a lot of sense. Because, just knowing where an enemy's weak spots are doesn't mean you'll hit them automatically. So I want to check first for the chance you have of hitting your desired target, and adjust the chance for doing more damage on that.

I assume any you did not mention a change for will remain the same.
Click to expand...

Yeah.
 
How's this mod doing in terms of popularity etc?

I haven't played it but I'm very interested in the consensus reaction to such major mechanics changes.
 
How's this mod doing in terms of popularity etc?

I haven't played it but I'm very interested in the consensus reaction to such major mechanics changes.
 
Just one guy over at the Codex is playing it regularly and he's pretty enthusiastic. But the thing's still pretty much a WIP; if I had to guess I'd think it'd probably appeal more to the Megamod crowd in the end than the RP and UP one, so hopefully it'll become compatible with that one too at some point.
 
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