FO2 Mechanics Overhaul Mod

[JimTheDinosaur]

- Sometimes i get displayed a 100% THC while hovering over target (should be ~50 (eg. sharpenend spear vs. plant)).

Hmm... weird that this hasn't turned up in any of my own testing, thanks.

- Sometimes the displayed AP cost in main weapon window gets messed up. Cycling a bit throug attack modes leads to correct numbers.

Yeah, this is annoying, but luckily it only affects displayed cost, never (as far as I can tell) actual cost. Will try to fix it though.

- The request&demand system doesn't work sometimes. I bartered twice with the buckner women in Klamath. First time, it showed reduced prices for my 4 normal gecko pelts. I cancelled this. Immidiadetly traded again, there were normal prices.

Hmm... really weird, especially because the prices only get set on map entry, so this shouldn't be possible... I'll check it out.

- I looted Vics shelf for my first ammo+firearm (24x 10mmJHP + piperifle).
- Unloading the piperifle leads to unloaded piperifle + 10x 10mmJHP
- Putting the 24x 10mm away, then unloading rifle leads to the the expected 1x 10mm in inventory.
- Putting this one away, then getting back the 24,then loading the rifle leads to loaded rifle + 5x 10mm.
There are some other weird combinations, eg. when picking up the 24x 10mm in the shelf in trappertown. Same with buying ammo. Stacks of 24 converting to stacks of 5 when merging with other stacks of the same type.

Wow, will check it out. Thanks for all this feedback!

 

[Sduibek]

Jim you should be able to avoid the ammo stack issues QuFu is talking about, via script. I think Nirran had one such script, but anyway basically what you'll need to do is delete and add back all weapon and ammo items, in all containers and on all NPCs. Probably can just put it in map_enter and check if first time visiting (metarule14)

They must be removed and readded either in map editor or via script, script would be easier I think

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Jim you should be able to avoid the ammo stack issues QuFu is talking about, via script. I think Nirran had one such script, but anyway basically what you'll need to do is delete and add back all weapon and ammo items, in all containers and on all NPCs. Probably can just put it in map_enter and check if first time visiting (metarule14)

They must be removed and readded either in map editor or via script, script would be easier I think

Ah, thanks, so that's the problem. I always assumed that map data was just saved in terms of 1 or 2 or 3 stacks, rather than exact amounts, but it makes sense of course that 13 bullets etc shouldn't suddenly transform to 24 on map exit.

 

[Glovz]

@Jim
Could you outline again what causes critters to flee?

I'm trying to figure out why 'to hit' would factor into it at all.

I would think the only reasons a critter should flee is:
1- if they are exhausted and don't have the ap to fight in any way
2- if their hp is too low (85% or more below what they started with)

Take into consideration; in real life, if a gang of 'bad' people come up on a single person or a smaller group than themselves, no matter what each one of the gang think of their own personal chances are in a fight - peer pressure and group think (blindly following a leader) - will almost always cause them to all behave the same/go for the attack.

Plus, including 'to hit' is like the critter knowing exactly how skillfully they are against the player which seems incorrect. In real life, you can look at someone and think you know things about them but those are just assumptions and could be completely wrong.

So if 'to hit' is to be a factor then maybe there should be a roll to see if the critter completely ignores that factor.

Just throwing my 5 cents out there. (in Canada we no longer have a 1 cent coin, thus having to modify the more accepted colloquialism of 2 cents.)

 

[Panzerkampfwagen]

Issue with 100% THC happened usually after creature critically missed and lost its next turn. At least for me. I fought this wasn't bug.

 

[Sduibek]

Glovz:

Critters flee if they don't have a high enough chance to hit you or too low of HP, as defined in their packet in AI.TXT - also they flee if blinded or crippled if their packet specifies that.

Some scripts specifically tell the critter to flee with an override command, like rats, but I think rat scripts are the only one that have an actual scripted flee, all the other are from LowToHit/LowHP/crippled/blind.

 

[Glovz]

Thanks Sduibek!

Well, 'to hit' still feels like an incorrect factor to consider for fleeing.

More thought:
1- Maybe town reputation and player reputation should factor in to fleeing
2- Maybe the number of people in your group should factor in to fleeing
3- The level of tech being used by the player and his/her group compared to other critters should factor in to fleeing (though this one would be difficult to script)

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

What Sduibek said, except that now to hit shouldn't be a factor anymore (I set all the values for fleeing due to min to hit to -80%).

I've replaced this with either "can't damage" (so dam threshold enemy > max damage AI) or "probably will get killed" (AI current hp + dam thresh < min damage enemy can deal). Additionally, too low hp and crippled still work as originally intended.

I'm pretty happy with this in theory (though I have to restrict "probably will get killed" to rational creatures so ants and rats don't automatically run away, and have to restrict it further by having it check whether you could kill the enemy that turn as well). However, as you can see it's still a bit of a clusterfuck in practice.

Issue with 100% THC happened usually after creature critically missed and lost its next turn. At least for me. I fought this wasn't bug.

Heh, no that's not supposed to happen. Thanks, that narrows it down.

2- Maybe the number of people in your group should factor in to fleeing

I originally had something elaborate like this in mind. I.e. a script would track the battle as a whole and see how the teams involved were doing. Abandoned it at some point, not sure why.

 

[Glovz]

"can't damage" (so dam threshold enemy > max damage AI) or "probably will get killed" (AI current hp + dam thresh < min damage enemy can deal)

Hmmm... this still just seems like the flip side of the 'to hit' coin.

"can't damage" is another one of those things I can't see a critter being able to determine by sight (ok maybe if the critter is carring a pipe rifle and the player is wearing power armor), but still it feels the same as knowing vs assuming.

Also, "probably will get killed" --- the formula seems off, maybe it should be (AI current hp + (AI current hp * dam thresh)/100 < min damage enemy can deal)?

Ok, I'm done now.

 

[QuFu]

it's me again!

After reading the last posts i feel, i should mention my visit in tubby s store.
Entered the Den first time. Headed straight to tubby for bartering. He had 29x 10mm JHP and 29x 10mm AP. I dragged one stack (24) in the barter area. Then dragged the remaining stack of 5 also. Remerged in the barter area were 10 bullets (2 stacks of 5). The same for the other ammotype.

 

[Sduibek]

Why shouldn't ToHit affect chance to flee?

I assume the original rationale was the person is saying "Fuck this, I'll probably just miss and get a Critical Failure anyway."

Also I'm pretty sure that AC affects ToHit directly in the calculation formula, meaning by extension they're more likely to flee if you have awesome armor, which makes perfect sense. Power Armor is really intimidating when sizing up in your crosshairs, as opposed to somebody in a Leather Jacket.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

"can't damage" (so dam threshold enemy > max damage AI) or "probably will get killed" (AI current hp + dam thresh < min damage enemy can deal)

Hmmm... this still just seems like the flip side of the 'to hit' coin.

"can't damage" is another one of those things I can't see a critter being able to determine by sight (ok maybe if the critter is carring a pipe rifle and the player is wearing power armor), but still it feels the same as knowing vs assuming.

I get your point, but first of all, it's still a pretty low threshold (e.g. damage resistance isn't factored in, so someone with a 10mm pistol with 12 max damage will still happily keep firing at a target with 11 damage threshold and 90% DR even though he'd never be able to scratch him), so the assuming part seems pretty well simulated. Second, this element is meant to prevent the ridiculous "mob of prostitutes attacks target in APA" scenario we all know too well. Ironically, this was more "rational" with vanilla FO2 because the prostitutes at least had the weird damage formula working in their favor in the case of a lucky crit, but with your or YAAM's formula, not even this is possible.

Also, "probably will get killed" --- the formula seems off, maybe it should be (AI current hp + (AI current hp * dam thresh)/100 < min damage enemy can deal)?

Don't really see how it's off. With my formula, someone with 3 HP and 3 DT freaks out when faced with a gun with min 7 damage. Again, "probably would kill in next round" is a rough approximation because it doesn't factor in DR, but to me that isn't that important: what's important is that in this scenario it makes sense (in my opinion) for the guy with 3 HP to be freaking out. Same case with someone wearing a leather jacket with 34 HP and facing someone with a Turbo Plasma Rifle.

With your formula, first example is 3 + (3*3)/100 = 3.1, making DT completely irrelevant. Or am I missing something?

 

[Glovz]

With your formula, first example is 3 + (3*3)/100 = 3.1, making DT completely irrelevant. Or am I missing something?

No, I missed something.

I thought the "probably will get killed" formula was using DR. Sorry.

I get the rational for the rest, but I guess I just need to do some play testing to see if my gut feel is off.

 

[Sduibek]

Hey don't ignore me

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

Because your points are irrelevant to my mod, as..

I assume the original rationale was the person is saying "Fuck this, I'll probably just miss and get a Critical Failure anyway."

critical misses are no longer affected by THC and...

Also I'm pretty sure that AC affects ToHit directly in the calculation formula, meaning by extension they're more likely to flee if you have awesome armor, which makes perfect sense. Power Armor is really intimidating when sizing up in your crosshairs, as opposed to somebody in a Leather Jacket.

armor makes you easier to hit, not harder.

 

[Glovz]

Why shouldn't ToHit affect chance to flee?

I assume the original rationale was the person is saying "Fuck this, I'll probably just miss and get a Critical Failure anyway."

I stated my reason earlier in the thread, but to put it another way:
'to hit' NOT factored in: a bad guy is trying to decide whether to attack me or not, by looking at me he's believes I'm normal, but in fact I'm [whatever super hero you like most]. The bad only realizes after he's begun to attack me; or possibly once he's had his ass kicked, that I was the wrong guy to attack.

By having the 'to hit' factored in: a bad guy is trying to decide whether to attack me or not, by looking at me (even though I look normal) he's able to detect magically that he would never be able to hit me, so he runs away.

Kinda feels weird huh? Or at least that's how I see it. And using "can't damage" as a factor; at least in my mind, is virtually the same. But at least I understand with "can't damage" that the bad guy may be able to tell from what I look like whether or not he can damage me, and so I can live with that.

Also I'm pretty sure that AC affects ToHit directly in the calculation formula, meaning by extension they're more likely to flee if you have awesome armor, which makes perfect sense. Power Armor is really intimidating when sizing up in your crosshairs, as opposed to somebody in a Leather Jacket.

Not sure if AC is still a factor given Jim's changes, but if it is and we're going by better armor higher AC, how would a bigger target be harder to hit? Never mind, don't answer that, it's a really old arguement.

EDIT:
Oops - yes maybe it was Jim who need to respond.

 

[Sduibek]

Fair enough, thanks for the responses

I think the other thing that should matter in this situation if you haven't implemented, in terms of armor worn, is enemies should be a bit more cautious if player wearing Combat Armor, and definitely more cautious if player wearing Power Amor. (unless the critters themselves are wearing equivalent armor) Because just visually, a raider would shit their pants if getting jumped by (or trying to jump) a walking tank. I know I would, unless I was a bounty hunter or super mutant or enclave or something like that.

Okay I'm done now

 

[Glovz]

I still think there should be a roll in there somewhere where the critter just says fuck it to how low their chances are of winning a fight and goes for it anyway. Or maybe IN of the critter plays a part, but are there many if any critters with 4 or less IN?

Sorry I thought I was done, I think I am now.

 

[JimTheDinosaur]

I still think there should be a roll in there somewhere where the critter just says fuck it to how low their chances are of winning a fight and goes for it anyway. Or maybe IN of the critter plays a part, but are there many if any critters with 4 or less IN?

Sorry I thought I was done, I think I am now.

Heh, by all means keep arguing, real glad that the feedback wagon has gotten rolling a bit finally.

Don't like the roll idea. Might just be me, but rolls are only okay when they don't encourage save/reloading, and having one or more characters in a potentially tough fight run away or not is one of those cases.

Intelligence I like... the only (big) problem is that intelligence isn't really something the devs cared the slightest about in allocating. Stat didn't matter anyway, so everyone has 4-6. Really, really frustrating for a lot of the things I'm trying to do, but it is what it is.

 

[Sduibek]

On that case, for that you could just consider 4= dumb, 5= no modifiers, 6= smart

On the other thing, how do you get around save/load issue? I agree that if player knows it's a roll, they'll just keep trying. Those without meta knowledge are safe though. But see Fallout doesn't maintain variables until saved again so I don't see a way around it.

Speaking of which, I hate how Fallout does skill rolls. No modifiers in most cases, just roll 1 to 100 vs player's skill. Really?? The extreme randomness of that is fucking retarded. Imagine if D&D used a D100 for everything...

Skill rolls should be modified by stats, environment, active skills, Perks, traits, etc., after rolling 1 to 100.

Also fun fact, sometimes Fallout is incapable of "true pseudorandom" (phrased that way because as we know, true random generators didn't exist at the time). You can check debug logs yourself or I can send a copy. Sometimes it will spit out "Warning, Sequence is not random, 95% confidence". Which is disconcerting consider how fucked the rolls already are.