Games like Fallout

[Briosafreak]

You guys haven`t seen the Gaider/Rosh discussions have you? Wonderfull stuff.

 

[Montez]

And yes, Geneforge 3 is on the way, so that looks promising. Shareware kicks BioWare's ass in terms of CRPG design, too! That is another game that looks like it will be much like Fallout. I can say this with speculation only, as I've only played the first one and haven't gotten into the second, but the world design and how the NPCs were written are improving with Vogel's next release. The same goes with the quests (most of which are practical versus some Exottik Fed-Ex!), plus this offer a good bit of role-playing and choice in how to progress. The combat in the Ganeforge games is much like Fallout's, too.

I realized the other day that paypal has a "virtual mastercard" so I'm finally going to be able to get Geneforge. I played the demo for a bit a long time ago and really liked it, so I'm really looking forward to playing through the whole game. The fact that there will be two more to play when I'm done is just icing on the cake.

 

[victor]

This is what I meant with Bioware getting the EA syndrome. They aim to please casual gamers (i.e KOTOR and perhaps NWN, even if it has one of the largest mod communities who are continuously making it more RPG), just for the simple reason of money-making. Can't really blame them for that, though.

About the Cowled wizards; the populace couldn't have had much to fear, as there barely was any populace. I was disappointed by Ashkatla (or however you spell it again) being quite empty, like a city of monuments. There was barely anyone in the city who didn't play a role in a quest. It felt a little too sterile. And the whole part about being able to use magic inside buildings seemed a little too convenient. Meh, the real reason I liked BG was the Forgotten Realms setting (but when will they make a Waterdeep game?).

With the risk of being insulted again, I must say that the term "CRPG" is very vague. You basically have to add graphics, or it removes the point of it existing (playing a text-based RPG on the PC is a bit dull, after all). So that could be a reason why you barely have any world interactivity: technical issues. But then that doesn't apply to all of them, and isn't much of an excuse. But then lighter CRPGs are nice, too. Something you can play casually without having to get into it too much. I also love the heavier kind of CRPGs, if I have time for them.

About Bioware's future in the RPG genre, look for Jade empire for the Xbox. They might have a chance there. Or not. Probably not.
I'm waiting for Fable , also for Xbox, which promises huge interactivity with the entire world. Sometimes it looks like the Sims though, and we all know what Peter Molyneux likes to do with his games (*cough* Black and white *cough*).

 

[Ratty Sr.]

Wait, I thought you *liked* KoTOR (which I still haven't played).

Oh, I loved KoTOR. I still love it. I'm a Star Wars fan, and KoTOR has everything one might want from a Star Wars game, from an epic plot to interesting, if not compelling characters.

However, if you are looking for an RPG, don't play KoTOR. If you expect a game to possess anything more than a semblance of freedom and interactivity, don't play KoTOR. If you hate clunky interfaces obviously designed with consoles in mind, don't play KoTOR. If you can't stand sloppy technical execution, don't play KoTOR.

Come to think of it, I don't know why I love the game so much. Must be the Star Wars. I found playing KoTOR (which I beat several times already) much more enjoyable than watching any of the last two SW movies. If you happen to play it, you're more than likely to day-dream about it a lot.

 

[Roshambo]

This is what I meant with Bioware getting the EA syndrome. They aim to please casual gamers (i.e KOTOR and perhaps NWN, even if it has one of the largest mod communities who are continuously making it more RPG), just for the simple reason of money-making. Can't really blame them for that, though.

That doesn't excuse them in labeling anything as an RPG.

About the Cowled wizards; the populace couldn't have had much to fear, as there barely was any populace. I was disappointed by Ashkatla (or however you spell it again) being quite empty, like a city of monuments. There was barely anyone in the city who didn't play a role in a quest. It felt a little too sterile. And the whole part about being able to use magic inside buildings seemed a little too convenient. Meh, the real reason I liked BG was the Forgotten Realms setting (but when will they make a Waterdeep game?).

So then explain how that resembles a CRPG or for that matter, Forgotten Realms, unless it's meant as a hit parade, which it is. Which, coincidentally, means it really doesn't work in terms of a CRPG. Go play Ultima 7 and get a clue. Play with both eyes open and see how a single quest not just involves the person you asked and just the other persons involved, but the whole city in many instances.

In fact, because you so desperately need a clue, I would heartily recommend that you download it from a warez site and give it a try. It's pretty bad that I have to break the rules in order to get a point across.

With the risk of being insulted again, I must say that the term "CRPG" is very vague.

Yes, because you pulled that out of your ass. Marketing depts, people without a clue, and publishers all enjoy filing games into the RPG genre to get more sales by cashing in on the popularity of some and the mere facade of the real genre.

You basically have to add graphics, or it removes the point of it existing (playing a text-based RPG on the PC is a bit dull, after all). So that could be a reason why you barely have any world interactivity: technical issues. But then that doesn't apply to all of them, and isn't much of an excuse. But then lighter CRPGs are nice, too. Something you can play casually without having to get into it too much. I also love the heavier kind of CRPGs, if I have time for them.

This is just more bullshit. Now you're trying another desperate invention of words "light and heavy CRPG". There's no such thing. Either it's in the CRPG genre or it belongs somewhere else. As BioWare's games have little resemblance to P&P RPGs, how can you call the CRPGs?

Sometimes it looks like the Sims though, and we all know what Peter Molyneux likes to do with his games (*cough* Black and white *cough*).

I have a feeling that is the only game of his in the past you have ever heard of.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

About Bioware's future in the RPG genre, look for Jade empire for the Xbox. They might have a chance there.

Jade Empire?! Are you kidding me? That game will be a pure, raw action game with level-ups, devoid of any semblance of complexity and freedom! It's a stupid console game, for fuck's sake! If you mention Jade Empire in context of CRPG's again, I swear I'll strangle you!

Sometimes it looks like the Sims though, and we all know what Peter Molyneux likes to do with his games (*cough* Black and white *cough*).

Dude, Peter Molyneux invented godly sims with Populous, one of the most legendary games ever created. He also made Theme Park, Syndicate and Magic Carpet, all of them amazingly fun and incredibly innovative games. I don't know if he worked on Dungeon Keeper, but if he did, then that's another masterpiece by this brilliant developer. Even Black and White was a fabulously conceived game, but too ahead of its time and quite poorly executed. Molyneux is one of greatest innovators in the history of gaming, and mere suggestion that he is copying The Sims is perposterous! If I ever hear you disrespecting Molyneux in such manner again, I'll... well, I'll strangle you!

 

[John Uskglass]

Jade Empire?! Are you kidding me? That game will be a pure, raw action game with level-ups, devoid of any semblance of complexity and freedom! It's a stupid console game, for fuck's sake! If you mention Jade Empire in context of CRPG's again, I swear I'll strangle you!

I can understand arguments against BG or FFVII being non-rpgs (and I agree on the second), but KOTOR was one in most regards. I actually liked KOTOR quite a bit, too.

Gothic 1&2 are really good, even if they're not that close. Most of the good ones have already been mentioned, but I'll throw in Geneforge cause it's barrles of fun.

Dude, Peter Molyneux invented godly sims with Populous, one of the most legendary games ever created. He also made Theme Park, Syndicate and Magic Carpet, all of them amazingly fun and incredibly innovative games. I don't know if he worked on Dungeon Keeper, but if he did, then that's another masterpiece by this brilliant developer. Even Black and White was a fabulously conceived game, but too ahead of its time and quite poorly executed. Molyneux is one of greatest innovators in the history of gaming, and mere suggestion that he is copying The Sims is perposterous! If I ever hear you disrespecting Molyneux in such manner again, I'll... well, I'll strangle you!

Agree 100%. Though SimCity was before Populous.

 

[victor]

Well I have been following Fable's progress for about a year now, and well, it looked better before. They added childish things that remind me much of The Sims. A serious RPG turned into something I might be ashamed of playing. This forces me to go evil if I play the game. I know Populous, but I'm talking about more recent games. Overhyping is never a good thing, which Molyneux loves to do. Black and White really sucked in a way since nearly all the things PM promised were left out. So I never said his games were simply bad, just not what he promised they would be.

If Kotor is an RPG, then BG and JE are too. I only mentioned Jade empire because it's not out yet. You don't know more about the game than me, so how can you tell at this point whether it'll be more RPGish than BG or not?

 

[Ratty Sr.]

I only mentioned Jade empire because it's not out yet. You don't know more about the game than me, so how can you tell at this point whether it'll be more RPGish than BG or not?

Well, when a game is announced as an "action RPG" with various "fighting styles" and "mystical powers", it's pretty obvious it'll be just another shallow click-fest (well, not click-fest, since you'll be using a gamepad, the clumsiest, most unadaptable controller ever invented) with barely any depth or interaction.

And KoTOR most definitely isn't a real RPG. It's even less of an RPG than Baldur's Gate II.

 

[John Uskglass]

And KoTOR most definitely isn't a real RPG. It's even less of an RPG than Baldur's Gate II.

How so? The plot was still (relitively) linear, but the choices in the game allowed at least some role playing. Have you even played it? I think even Saint would disagree with you there.

 

[Sander]

Well, when a game is announced as an "action RPG" with various "fighting styles" and "mystical powers", it's pretty obvious it'll be just another shallow click-fest (well, not click-fest, since you'll be using a gamepad, the clumsiest, most unadaptable controller ever invented) with barely any depth or interaction.

Get over yourself. A gamepad is very useful for certain types of games, playing action games is much easier with a gamepad than without a gamepad, this is especially obvious with sports games and the like.

 

[victor]

Yes, I would prefer a gamepad over mouse+keyboard on any game like Prince of Persia, Ninja gaiden or Legacy of Kain. Also Fable, as it has the same combat system as these.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

The plot was still (relitively) linear, but the choices in the game allowed at least some role playing. Have you even played it? I think even Saint would disagree with you there.

Christ... First of all, if a game is an RPG, character attributes and skills should determine something. In KotOR, they affect precisely jack. All that matters is strength and endurance, and wisdom is pretty useful for Jedi characters (but not essential). Dexterity is bullshit, since it's useful only for ranged combatants (who suck beyond belief), charisma is bullshit since dialogues have a trivial role in the game (it cracks me up how most of them contain options that allow you to persuade people without needing to use persuade skill) and bonus to Jedi abilities can just as easily be acquired by putting points into wisdom (which additionally grants bonus force points), while intelligence is so useless it's almost laughable - I mean, what moron would invest into skills like computers and security when it's much easier to just hack your way through the game, even for most pussy-ass characters! Even if you absolutely must slice into a computer system or repair something to do a quest (something that happens about twice in the entire game), with the right amount of spikes / repair kits, even the most dimwitted characters can accomplish such dauntingly challenging tasks.

But it isn't the character system that kills the role playing aspect most - no, it's the game mechanics and (lack of) interaction. In KotOR, you can't kill NPC's that aren't meant to die or randomly attack people in the street, you can't freely roam around the galaxy, you can't join various factions and choose multiple paths in the game. All your actions, no matter how great or epic, seem like they have no effect whatsoever on the game world. For most quests, there are only two possible ways to complete them - the good way and the evil way. Difference between the two is trivial - if you choose the good way, you get light side points, if you choose the evil way, you get dark side points. When you play an evil character, it's almost identical to playing a good-doer. Namely, BioWare seems to think that being evil = being a prick. Your evil deeds are reduced to intimidating NPC's into giving your more credits or threatening to rip their tongues out (which you can't do, of course, since you can't attack people unless developers intended for them to die). "You'll give me more or you will regret it!" Oooh, real damn evil. My hands are trembling in fear. Honestly, what kind of an RPG lets you play a dark side character but doesn't let you join the Sith? You play a character with dark side powers that would make Darth Vader cry like a pussy, and yet you are still forced to perform silly little errands for any shithead that decides to use you for menial tasks. If this was a real RPG, my character would vaporize the insolent dipshit before he could blink. And then there are dialogues... No matter how stupid, evil or crude your character is, you always have exactly the same options available, and almost all of them lead to the same outcome. There are a few situations where in dialogues it is decided whether or not you will kill or betray someone, but that's the only semblance of non-linearity in what is otherwise a linear point 'n click adventure game. This note runs through the entire game, and is further emphasized by plentiful logic puzzles that seem to have been taken straight from old Sierra and Lucas Arts adventure games. Yes, KotOR is an adventure game through and through, except for combat parts, when it turns into a squad-based tactical shooter, reminiscent of earlier BioWare works. Interaction with party members is also for the most part predefined - you can insult them, threaten them, make fun of them, but you'll still end up listening about their personal problems. You can't even kill them (too bad, it's an appealing prospect) except in those few moments where developers deducted their deaths wouldn't require any extra scripting (God forbid having to put actual effort in designing your game - after all, it's much easier to just slap it with RPG tag and gullible gamers will be all over it like ugly on Dick Cheney).

To sum up, KotOR is almost entirely devoid of the role playing aspect, which is a pretty major flaw in a game that claims to be an RPG. I thought this was clearly evident to anyone who played it, but it seems I had no choice but to spoon-feed the obvious conclusion to you dimwits. I hope this is the last we've had of the silly "but th1s gaem iz an rpg lol" discourse.

 

[John Uskglass]

(something that happens about twice in the entire game)

You have'nt played it, that simple. I was able to walk through the Hidden Bek base without firing a blaster till the final fight, not to mention how many times you can use robots to do you're bidding.

with the right amount of spikes / repair kits, even the most dimwitted characters can accomplish such dauntingly challenging tasks.

If you have near a hudnred of them. I still doubt you've played the game.

n KotOR, you can't kill NPC's that aren't meant to die or randomly attack people in the street,

No, you can't. This is a limitation, true. But all RPGs have limitations.

, you can't freely roam around the galaxy,

Can't do it in Arcanum either.

you can't join various factions and choose multiple paths in the game.

You have'nt played it. Hidden Beks on Taris, how you deal with the Kolto factory in MAnnan.....hell, there's as many moral choices here as Fallout, more then Arcanum.

When you play an evil character, it's almost identical to playing a good-doer. Namely, BioWare seems to think that being evil = being a prick. Your evil deeds are reduced to intimidating NPC's into giving your more credits or threatening to rip their tongues out (which you can't do, of course, since you can't attack people unless developers intended for them to die). "You'll give me more or you will regret it!" Oooh, real damn evil.

This was a flaw in Kotor, but you contridicted yourself here in that you admit the two are not all that alike.

Honestly, what kind of an RPG lets you play a dark side character but doesn't let you join the Sith?

*spoiler*
With Bastila, on the Unknown World?

No matter how stupid, evil or crude your character is, you always have exactly the same options available, and almost all of them lead to the same outcome.

So.....maybe they should have completely diffirent conversational options because you you enjoy throwing Ewoks into kitchen ovens? Jesus dude, I've played Fallout a dozen times, and Gizmo, even if I'm a Hero of the Wasteland, still asks if I want the job.

 

[Sander]

You have'nt played it, that simple. I was able to walk through the Hidden Bek base without firing a blaster till the final fight, not to mention how many times you can use robots to do you're bidding.

This was what Ratty said:

Even if you absolutely must slice into a computer system or repair something to do a quest (something that happens about twice in the entire game), with the right amount of spikes / repair kits, even the most dimwitted characters can accomplish such dauntingly challenging tasks.

What the hell does using a blaster or using a robot have to do with repairing stuff?

If you have near a hudnred of them. I still doubt you've played the game.

Wow. What insolence. He wrote a two-page(if not more) long review on this board a while back on that game.

No, you can't. This is a limitation, true. But all RPGs have limitations.

Not being able to attack anyone you want is a pretty damned HUGE limitation. It fucks up everything known as freedom.

you can't freely roam the galaxy

Can't do it in Arcanum either.

No, because Arcanum is located on 1(one) world.
However, I can travel anywhere I want in Arcanum, if I get to the right place. I can't cross the mountains, unless I find the place of the pass. But I can travel anywhere I want at any given time in Arcanum. Tsch.

You have'nt played it. Hidden Beks on Taris, how you deal with the Kolto factory in MAnnan.....hell, there's as many moral choices here as Fallout, more then Arcanum.

It's never about the amount of moral choices, it's about the effect of these choices. Do these choices have any effect whatsoever throughout the game? No. They give you light/dark side points. Well, woohoo! it doesn't mean jack shit for the story.

This was a flaw in Kotor, but you contridicted yourself here in that you admit the two are not all that alike.

The cryptic language.

So.....maybe they should have completely diffirent conversational options because you you enjoy throwing Ewoks into kitchen ovens? Jesus dude, I've played Fallout a dozen times, and Gizmo, even if I'm a Hero of the Wasteland, still asks if I want the job.

There's a difference between getting offered that job every time, and conversational options not mattering. Look at the conversation with Gizmo and the amount of diversity and the effects of every single choice. KoTOR doesn't even come near that.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

I was able to walk through the Hidden Bek base without firing a blaster till the final fight, not to mention how many times you can use robots to do you're bidding.

Why do that when even with the weakest character you can fight your way through any area in the game? Concept of "stealth character" or "science character" is essentially removed due to lack of balance in the game, which is crucial in a CRPG. Ultimately, you can force yourself to slice into computers and repair droids if you are so desperate to use your skills, but there is absolutely nothing in the game to motivate you to do so, since no matter what kind of character you create, combat is always an equally viable solution. And notice the "final fight" bit. You still have to fight the big bad boss, or betray the Beks, in which case you have to fight another big bad boss. In a well-executed RPG, you would be able to play consistently with the role you chose for your character, and not forced to follow the narrow path developers intended with some insignificant straying.

If you have near a hudnred of them.

Quests which require you to use your computer skill are following (off top of my head):

1) Freeing the Mandalorian prisoner in Sith Academy on Korriban.

2) Getting through the droid area on the Star Forge (in truth, even hear you can avoid the slicing hassle by exploiting a bug in the game and breaking open the door which leads to Malak's chamber).

And that's it. Everywhere else, skills are just a waste of time and points.

No, you can't. This is a limitation, true. But all RPGs have limitations.

Except for the part where KotOR isn't an RPG.

Can't do it in Arcanum either.

You can. In case you haven't noticed, you can walk from Shrouded Hills to Tarant if you are into it. In fact, roaming the wilderness is a way to find some interesting things.

Hidden Beks on Taris, how you deal with the Kolto factory in MAnnan.....hell, there's as many moral choices here as Fallout, more then Arcanum.

I'm beginning to think you haven't played the KotOR. Details like choosing whether or not you will betray a gang or whether or not you will poison the shark on Manaan are superficial and trivial. Even if you betray the Hidden Beks and choose to work with Black Vulkars instead, you still have to ride in that race and you still have to fight Brejik. And once you are done with it, your allegiance with either gang will mean nothing and have no effect on how game world reacts to you.

Really, your argument is so weak it's almost pathetic - all you have proven is that no matter which option you choose, the game will flow in exactly the same manner. Yeah, real damn RPG-ish.

This was a flaw in Kotor, but you contridicted yourself here in that you admit the two are not all that alike.

No, I haven't. I merely pointed out how superficial and insignificant differences between "good" and "evil" games are.

*spoiler*
With Bastila, on the Unknown World?

Dude, that's nothing. In the last thirty minutes of the game, you are allowed to choose between two paths (which are, ironically, almost identical, except for the fact that with evil path you have to kill some of your party members and have a different endgame sequence), big friggin' deal. This branching of the story is done in manner of an adventure game (remember how in Blade Runner you could choose one of several paths near the end of the game), and not a CRPG. Through about 90% of the game, you are a Jedi on a mission given to you by a Jedi Council, and no matter how evil you strive to be, you can't change that predefined path that was set before you.

So.....maybe they should have completely diffirent conversational options because you you enjoy throwing Ewoks into kitchen ovens? Jesus dude, I've played Fallout a dozen times, and Gizmo, even if I'm a Hero of the Wasteland, still asks if I want the job.

That's not what I meant. In Fallout your conversation options are determined by your intelligence and reputation, and outcomes of conversations depend on your charisma as well as social standing - exactly the way it should be in a CRPG. In KotOR, dialogues are (like everything else) executed in manner of an adventure game - choices of what to say are always the same, as are the outcomes. I'm seriously wondering why they even implemented dialogue options, since they almost always produce identical results.

 

[Ratty Sr.]

What the hell does using a blaster or using a robot have to do with repairing stuff?

Believe it or not, you always have to repair a droid in order to use it against enemies. Another bit of stupidity in KotOR. The whole pacifist approach in the game consists of dispensing spikes / repair kits in exchange for avoiding a fight or two.

Wow. What insolence. He wrote a two-page(if not more) long review on this board a while back on that game.

Yeah, and that was only after I finished it once. I finished it 2.5 times afterwards and learned a lot more since.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I know there are "indie CRPGs" out there, but I'm disappointed by the mainstream industry either not existing anymore, or spitting out horseshit. Anyway, linkage please?

http://www.spidweb.com - Geneforge series and Avernum series
http://www.teudogar.com/home.htm - Teudogar and the Alliance with Rome, similar to Ultimas only with a historical setting.
http://www.zero-sum.com/ - Prelude to Darkness, damned fine CRPG with a unique turn based combat system and two different plot strings from start to finish.

 

[victor]

Thanks a million, Saint. I'll look into them when I get the time (got an exam tomorrow *shudder*).

 

[John Uskglass]

Okay, Ratty, what is you're definition of an adventure game?