Isometric TBRPG or New Vegas-styled FPSRPG?

[ZigzagPX4]

What makes me question the likelihood of this experience is that other AAA RPG developers in the west had followed a similar path, but eventually reached a point where the mechanical streamlining was too much and actually reversed course on this. Like Bioware agreed that Mass Effect 2 had too limited weapon selection and character customization, so they massively increased loadout choices (even adding encumbrance as a mechanic) and added choices at nearly every level of the various skills, rather than just the last one. Dragon Age: Inquisition was a much more tactical game than its predecessor, with many more character customization options.

It's conceivable that Bethesda will follow the same trajectory where they'll step back from the proverbial abyss and say "you know,
'yes, yes, later, and sarcastic' isn't a good basis for a dialogue system and there should be more quests that aren't 'shoot those guys'."

Any time you keep pushing a trend further and further, you're going to reach the point where it's too much. Perhaps Fallout 4 is that point for Bethesda.

Well, we could consider this and hope for the best which I would very much appreciate, but as we all know, NMA will continue the path of sulking about how everything's gone to hell.

Now, I wouldn't say Fallout 4 is that point just yet. Maybe Fallout 5, or the last expansion pack for Fallout 4 will seal the deal. Yes, people will say DA:I was still simplified garbage and they wouldn't be wrong, but it's still what I consider progress. No one can appreciate steps in the right direction anymore, either corporations fix every mistake they make perfectly or hey ho they're still the shittiest group on Earth. There's this thing called "give it time" and I think we've all forgotten what it means.

Maybe it's just because most of you started gaming more than 10 years ago and you've been waiting for a long time and progress has never seemed to come? I would understand if that was the case. This entire site would make more sense if that was actually the case.

 

[PossibleCabbage]

There's a balancing thing here, where on one hand you want your games to be approachable for as many people as possible, but also deep enough for people to get really interested in. It's inevitable that games will tip one way or the other, but generally once the developers realize that erring too much to one side is hurting the game in the eyes of some, the pendulum will probably start to swing back the other way.

So the question is "what can be done to make the game more interesting without making it less approachable" and there are a bunch of really obvious things you could improve on from Fallout 4 in this regard (more than 4 choices in dialogue, three of which are yes; alternative quest solutions that avoid wanton violence; some opportunities to reach compromise between opposed parties etc.)

I mean, there are always going to be people who are going to dislike whatever you do. The question is how to balance different people wanting different things. For the next Fallout to have more narrative and mechanical depth needn't hurt the experience for people just interested in the old Shoot 'n Loot.

 

[eissa]

good rpg is how well your character progress not affected by your skill as gamer, but character stats itself. there's need a balance if they were going to fpsRPG (or rpg-fps), i mean things like how could you just aiming the gun crosshair in enemy head even if your character is in low on gun skill

 

[Risewild]

I'm definitely an isometric RPG fan. I liked New Vegas, but I relied heavily on the VATS function which pretty much limits the character builds I can go with. I'll need high perception and agility just to be able to use VATS properly.

I'm so bad at shooters it's embarrassing. The whole immersion argument doesn't do anything for me either. Isometric view combined with text is a lot more immersive for me, actually. Maybe I'm just weird like that, but the whole first person business mainly just stresses me out.

I am on this boat too, I usually play Melee or unarmed characters in FNV or I usually keep missing the enemies with ranged weapons if they are aware of me.

I also get more immersed with text and isometric view, for example those games can have a description of what the area smell like for example, while to get that feeling in FNV for example there has to be a NPC mentioning it or something. Well made Isometric can lead to the player see enough and use it's imagination for the rest, using text descriptions as guides.

And I also suck at FPS these days, my reflexes are slow for example and I can't focus on immediate action as much, also RPGs for me should let the player think about pretty much everything they do, instead of just go "AAAAH! AN ENEMY JUST JUMPED IN MY FACE, *SHOOTING BUTTON MASH*"

 

[eissa]

I am on this boat too, I usually play Melee or unarmed characters in FNV or I usually keep missing the enemies with ranged weapons if they are aware of me.

I also get more immersed with text and isometric view, for example those games can have a description of what the area smell like for example, while to get that feeling in FNV for example there has to be a NPC mentioning it or something. Well made Isometric can lead to the player see enough and use it's imagination for the rest, using text descriptions as guides.

And I also suck at FPS these days, my reflexes are slow for example and I can't focus on immediate action as much, also RPGs for me should let the player think about pretty much everything they do, instead of just go "AAAAH! AN ENEMY JUST JUMPED IN MY FACE, *SHOOTING BUTTON MASH*"

So basically

Isometric = novel ( describe n immersed)

Fps = movie ( show, don't tell)

I can see each advantage now

 

[dopezilla]

What makes me question the likelihood of this experience is that other AAA RPG developers in the west had followed a similar path, but eventually reached a point where the mechanical streamlining was too much and actually reversed course on this. Like Bioware agreed that Mass Effect 2 had too limited weapon selection and character customization, so they massively increased loadout choices (even adding encumbrance as a mechanic) and added choices at nearly every level of the various skills, rather than just the last one. Dragon Age: Inquisition was a much more tactical game than its predecessor, with many more character customization options.

It's conceivable that Bethesda will follow the same trajectory where they'll step back from the proverbial abyss and say "you know,
'yes, yes, later, and sarcastic' isn't a good basis for a dialogue system and there should be more quests that aren't 'shoot those guys'."

Any time you keep pushing a trend further and further, you're going to reach the point where it's too much. Perhaps Fallout 4 is that point for Bethesda.

Might be. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just way easier to just keep on going this path. I think they'll need some serious financial incentive before changing course. Since Fallout 4 can be considered a financial success and mainstream media have all praised the game to heaven, there's no need for them to change course just yet.

I'm more hopeful, Fallout 4 is getting some mixed reviews, and many people are disappointed with the game. I know with its success they could completely ignore their long time fans and just pander to the newcomers (people who played only Fallout 4). But it might be a stupid idea, because the long time fans are responsible for massively advertising the game. They're the fuel to their hype train.

The fans aren't responsible for advertising the game, Bethesda's massive PR division is, and it's doing a great job. TV spots and posters throughout cities, subway stations, bus stations and whatnot have sold this game to the masses. I think you are overestimating the power of the fans a bit. Also, Fallout 4 has its own share of hardcore fans. Let's not forget that. Reddit and the Beth forums are chock full of them. We are the minority.

Of course, I might just be a cynic and shit might turn out fine with Fallout 5, but I sincerely doubt it. Everyone here is complaining about how two-dimensional Fallout 4 really is, but lets not forget Bethesda hasn't released a decent RPG since Daggerfall/Morrowind (I believe on the Codex Morrowind isn't even considered a serious RPG and they might just have a point there).

 

[Knight In Leather Armor]

I like both of them. I grew up on shooters but Turn Based Isometrics are also really good and I enjoy both of them.

 

[pipboy-x11]

Isometric sucks because you can't have sex mods then. So it's either FPS or over-the-shoulder turn based. Don't remember a single game done in a latter manner though. Or maybe I don't know the gaming market that well.

 

[eissa]

Isometric sucks because you can't have sex mods then. So it's either FPS or over-the-shoulder turn based. Don't remember a single game done in a latter manner though. Or maybe I don't know the gaming market that well.

there's quite isometric game in 2010s now

 

[Ragemage]

New Vegas showed me that an open world first person type game can be done very well. And honestly first person/third person games are what I grew up with. Golden Eye on the N64, Max Payne on the PS2, Driver 3, Banjo Kazooie, Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask, Super Mario 64, Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, etc etc. I don't mind isometric, I really like it in both original Fallouts, PoE, and Wasteland 2, but that's really my only exposure to isometric style games unless the original Final Fantasies, Chrono Trigger, and Secret of Mana count.

Thus I lean more towards first/third person as my preferred choice, but honestly I could play either one and be happy so long as the game is good. I mean, Tyranny's isometric and it has me more excited than any other game that's coming out so far barring the new Legend of Zelda on Wii U coming out this year also.

 

[Greentoast11]

I think Third Person/First person is best for fallout, Let's face it Fallout 1 and 2 are not renowned for their great gameplay anymore, It was great at the time but not so much anymore.


Obviously topdown is still relevant with gameplay tweaks such as in the masterpiece Wasteland 2. But I think it's ultimately not that important, execution is what matters.

 

[pipboy-x11]

there's quite isometric game in 2010s now

I know there are great isometric games released recently, like Wasteland 2 and PoE. Neither do I buy that BS argument that isometric is "old" and FPS is "modern" - FFS, I played Wolfenstein 3D (yes, the original one) and crapload of other FPSs (DOOM, Duke Nukem 3D) long before Fallout came out.

I just don't think you really need to make isometric game to have a turn-based combat. I can imagine over-the-shoulder view or rotating around/zooming in-out camera view combined with turn-based combat. I do think turn-based combat suits RPG better because it doesn't break "only PC skills matter" rule. But isometric view... I'm not sure if I enjoy having camera pinned to the sky all the time. Some other, free-camera solution, the one allowing you to switch between over-the-shoulder - rotating - isometric cameras is technically possible and would satisfy a lot of people, I guess.

 

[likaq]

I liked Fallout 1, but it's gameplay was absolutely horrible. Meanwhile, NV and (from what people seem to be saying) Fallout 4 have pretty good and fun gameplay

Modern NMA at its finest.

 

[Mr Fish]

I think Third Person/First person is best for fallout, Let's face it Fallout 1 and 2 are not renowned for their great gameplay anymore, It was great at the time but not so much anymore.


Obviously topdown is still relevant with gameplay tweaks such as in the masterpiece Wasteland 2. But I think it's ultimately not that important, execution is what matters.

I strongly disagree, Fallout works best in isometric and turn-based as it emphasizes character skill over player skill. It's an RPG, not a shooter. And the gameplay of Fallout 1/2 is something that brings me back to those games because they had damn good gameplay that even to this day I like. Sure it has some rough edges that could use an update but that does not mean that transitioning it over to a whole different kind of gameplay is inherently better.

 

[Earth]

To be honest I kinda wish Fallout New Vegas was a turn-based isometric game.

 

[Brahmin Noodles]

I don't really have a preference for either, as long as it's done well. For example, NV showed us that if it's done by a competent developer that actually understands what an RPG is, first-person works very well. At the same time though, first-person is definitely more player skill based than character skill based. But at the same time I also feel myself more immersed in first-person view. I think early posts were spot on with this: they both have their pros and cons. (BTW, you should add poll)

 

[eissa]

it is just that fps -rpg like new vegas is having more mod than isometric one. count alone of how vegas mod outnumber any isometric game mod ever created. it also partially of immersion as well.
that gonna stick until divinity original sin 2 comes out with its modding support

 

[Brahmin Noodles]

it is just that fps -rpg like new vegas is having more mod than isometric one. count alone of how vegas mod outnumber any isometric game mod ever created. it also partially of immersion as well.
that gonna stick until divinity original sin 2 comes out with its modding support

The reason that New Vegas has more mods has nothing to do with what perspective it's in. It has more mods because it's more popular.

 

[Ediros]

As much as I like isometric rpgs, I think that Fallout works better as an FPSRPG hybrid.

It feels more immersive being able to interact with the world like we normaly do.

However, it would only work if Obsidian could enchance the meaning of special and perks more.

I like the way NV works but I think it should have bigger consequences of SPECIAL, like in Fallout 1/2 where 1 charisma blocked all companions. So it wouldn`t be a dump stat like in NV.

Basically an RPG first and foremost and shooter second or even third.

 

[Mr Fish]

it is just that fps -rpg like new vegas is having more mod than isometric one. count alone of how vegas mod outnumber any isometric game mod ever created. it also partially of immersion as well.
that gonna stick until divinity original sin 2 comes out with its modding support

What isometric cRPG has had the kind of modding tools that a Bethesda game does though?