J.E. Sawyer on guns

[iii]

Sawyer on guns, history and Fallout.<blockquote>Close to it in some cases, especially when it comes to sidearms. The M1911 is still in service in some U.S. military and LEO branches and it's been 99 years since it was introduced. The Hi-Power has been even more successful worldwide, though for "only" for 89 years. The 9mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO round is practically omnipresent in handguns and submachine guns despite being 108 years old. Rifles and machine guns saw the most development in the first half of the 20th century. The difference between a M1903 Springfield and an AR-15 is huge. The difference between an AR-15 and an M4 is not. The U.S. military's assault rifles still tend to fire .223 Rem/5.56 NATO, their marksman/sniper rifles still tend to fire .308 Win/7.62 NATO, and their sidearms tend to fire 9mm NATO or .45 ACP.

The Fallout games are also set in the United States which, practically speaking, means the private collections of citizens are as relevant as what LEO/military groups have. The U.S.'s "curio and relics" collector license system means that when a firearm is 50 years old, it can be transferred through the private market with a C&R license instead of a more restrictive FFL. If the End of the World came tomorrow, the number of private citizens rolling out with AR-15s, M1 Garands, Mauser K98s, AK-47s, Thompsons SMGs, BARs, Hi-Powers, Mosin-Nagants, and M1911s would be pretty large. </blockquote>

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

y'know...at least...even if the game is shit (which i doubt) we can say Sawyer actually tried to be relevant instead of just throwing in a bunch of "cool shit" and s'ploshuns because "violence is fuckin' funny".

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I still think that Sawyer's missing the point that when you're working with a setting in an alternate future with different rules that made an effort (with a few exceptions) to make their weapons look believable but not like real word guns, you do so to make the setting seem more unique. Fallout threw in some "cool" guns so it's fine to throw in some more but the vast majority should be tweaked so that they look real but aren't a specific gun. But yeah, at least he's thought about whether or not it could fit and why.

 

[Vic Ious]

There were severel real post-50's weapons in the original games.

H&K CAWS.
H&K G11.
Desert Eagle.
P90.

 

[Lexx]

There were severel real post-50's weapons in the original games.

H&K CAWS.
H&K G11.
Desert Eagle.
P90.

3 of the 4 have been in Fallout 2 only and I think Fallout 2 has overdone it already a bit. Also the P90 was a H&K P90c and not a FN P90, which makes it not a "real" weapon.

 

[iii]

There were severel real post-50's weapons in the original games.

H&K CAWS.
H&K G11.
Desert Eagle.
P90.

3 of the 4 have been in Fallout 2 only and I think Fallout 2 has overdone it already a bit. Also the P90 was a H&K P90c and not a FN P90, which makes it not a "real" weapon.

Besides: The G11 and CAWS never went into service and looked quite different in the game than in real life.

 

[Ausir]

You forgot to mention Pancor Jackhammer, which also a real weapon that never went into service.

Did noticed anyone that they call Stimpak as Stimpack on the "Wheel of Friendship" screenshot? It looks like somebody from developers plays more Starcraft than Fallout in these days...

The spelling "stimpack" was also used in Fallout 1 and 2 in some places, even if the inventory name is "stimpak".

 

[SuAside]

Close to it in some cases, especially when it comes to sidearms. The M1911 is still in service in some U.S. military and LEO branches and it's been 99 years since it was introduced. The Hi-Power has been even more successful worldwide, though for "only" for 89 years.

Would be fairly quickly outdated in a world with combat armor, power armor, laser pistols, plasma pistols,...

And whomever thinks the AR15 will make it anywhere near that service life is an idiot.

The 9mm Luger/Parabellum/NATO round is practically omnipresent in handguns and submachine guns despite being 108 years old.

Except the cartridge has evolved since then... just because it uses the same brass doesn't mean it's anywhere near the original 9mm Luger in terms of performance.

Rifles and machine guns saw the most development in the first half of the 20th century. The difference between a M1903 Springfield and an AR-15 is huge.

Except the AR15 was developed in the second half of the 20th century, but ok. I get his point, and he's right on that. Our advances in small arms have been mainly in munitions, optics,... Whereas the actions of the weapons used have merely been refined. Direct blowback, rolled delayed blowback, DI, long stroke, short stroke,... Nothing really novel has been added lately.

The difference between an AR-15 and an M4 is not. The U.S. military's assault rifles still tend to fire .223 Rem/5.56 NATO, their marksman/sniper rifles still tend to fire .308 Win/7.62 NATO, and their sidearms tend to fire 9mm NATO or .45 ACP.

This has more to do with unwillingness to spend money to change this...

But then again he's also wrong, since in FO, the weapons DID evolve past that! And so did armor (which in turn would again fuel the need to increase effectiveness of weapons). Not only that, but they also had an extra 65 years to do so!

The Fallout games are also set in the United States which, practically speaking, means the private collections of citizens are as relevant as what LEO/military groups have. The U.S.'s "curio and relics" collector license system means that when a firearm is 50 years old, it can be transferred through the private market with a C&R license instead of a more restrictive FFL. If the End of the World came tomorrow, the number of private citizens rolling out with AR-15s, M1 Garands, Mauser K98s, AK-47s, Thompsons SMGs, BARs, Hi-Powers, Mosin-Nagants, and M1911s would be pretty large.

I'm impressed he can name those.

But those would be more like a Brown Bess to them, than valid choices. With war brewing (for decades coming!), you'd suspect to see A LOT of modern weaponry for SHTF purposes, not old C&R junk. Even if that old C&R junk can prove useful in a pinch.

But the main problem remains: these are OUR GUNS, not those of an alternative future! Those are our choices, not that of a future with vacuum tubes, nuclear energy at your fingertips,... I'd almost accept his list, as they are all pre-50's, but the weapon he is trying to defend the AR15/M4 IS NOT! He's trying to divert attention.

More so, it has been shown ad nauseum that the AR15 does not fit the 50's retro future point of view at all. If anything, the choice converges our world with Fallout's world, which is bland and retarded...

There were severel real post-50's weapons in the original games.

Desert Eagle: big mistake, but it fitted in ok for raiders. Even if it was a totally bonehead choice.

That's the only real post-50's weapon in FO1.

 

[Ausir]

Fallout's guns were never that realistic even in the context of timeline divergence in the first place. It's not as if modern guns are less consistent with that than a gun lifted from Blade Runner.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

I'm a little more fogiving on CAWS and the G11 than stuff like the P90 and FN-FAL due to their (70s?) retro-future look but they still don't really belong to well. The Pancor Jackhammer I thought blended in very well with the look and style of the guns from the first so it's the only one that I really thought fit well, but a using it for a bases to make an imaginary weapon may very well be best. The Tommy Gun is questionable, on one hand it makes sense to be in the setting, on the other it's iconic and would rather see a fictional drum loaded SMG.

Personally, I would like to see a rifle with a revolver design that would be the big brother of the 10mm Pistol.

 

[iii]

snip

Damn, Sua!

Its a shame that you do not post in Beth's forum.

 

[TheGM]

I'm a little more fogiving on CAWS and the G11 than stuff like the P90 and FN-FAL due to their (70s?) retro-future look but they still don't really belong to well.

Personally, I would like to see a rifle with a revolver design that would be the big brother of the 10mm Pistol.

FN FAL has been around since 1953.

Before somebody screams "BOADERLANDZ!"

There was a Revolver Rifle back in the 1800's. So it was real. Damn thing just had the tendency to blow your hand off when you shot it.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I'm a little more fogiving on CAWS and the G11 than stuff like the P90 and FN-FAL due to their (70s?) retro-future look but they still don't really belong to well. The Pancor Jackhammer I thought blended in very well with the look and style of the guns from the first so it's the only one that I really thought fit well, but a using it for a bases to make an imaginary weapon may very well be best. The Tommy Gun is questionable, on one hand it makes sense to be in the setting, on the other it's iconic and would rather see a fictional drum loaded SMG.

Personally, I would like to see a rifle with a revolver design that would be the big brother of the 10mm Pistol.

That might be eventualy the Johnson M1941 semiautomatic rifle (USA). Its look is close to something you might think is interesting.

I think using such a similar design for a 50s future weapon but just with either 10 mm amunition or even something energy based might have been awesome. But ah well.

 

[DocConrad]

@Crni Vuk:

Technically that isn't a revolver since it doesn't, you know, revolve. It just has a circular magazine. I've got a Ruger hunting rifle chambered for .44 Magnum with a similar design.

 

[Crni Vuk]

yeah I know its not a real one, but from its look (not the technology) its at least something very close to it.

I mean we could always get something like this in the game

*Edit
by thinking about it I could even imagine something like that as a early weapon to fit some post apoc game would be quite easy to manufacture I think, like the pipe rifle or something.

 

[SuAside]

snip

Damn, Sua!
Its a shame that you do not post in Beth's forum.

Got banned from beth's forum at some point, and I haven't bothered since, because I didn't do anything wrong. I was already being very careful not to piss em off, since a lot of people from NMA had already been banned before me. Still don't actually know why I've been banned.

Maybe some moderator was sour over Kharn & me ninja'ing into the presentation at Leipzig and saw his chance to ban me because I was calmly explaining why someone was wrong about his views of FO lore.

Doesn't really matter. I'm not going back to waste my time there. Feel free to use anything I say here, if you agree with what I'm saying. I don't mind.

Fallout's guns were never that realistic even in the context of timeline divergence in the first place. It's not as if modern guns are less consistent with that than a gun lifted from Blade Runner.

And it was a bloody ridiculous idea. A .223 out of a pistol barrel (hell, the barrel would be like 2 inches or something if you look at the picture) would give a lot of flash and noise, coupled with a bullet that drops out of the air after flying 2 yards.

But I can live with a homage to Blade Runner.
They did the same with the 10mm pistol. It has retarded design as well, but it is UNIQUE. It has flavor. That's really the primary issue with current weapon design of Fallout games. All weapons are either real or totally bland. Or, well, let's face it: retarded beyond all imagination.

FN FAL has been around since 1953.

And again, that isn't really relevant. If handled like the Mauser C96, as being rare and somewhat unique, then sure. But in the end, it messes with the alternative timeline and leads you to a slippery slope.
It's easier to create & maintain a correct atmosphere by NOT using real weapons, even if they do fit the timeline in some twisted way.

There was a Revolver Rifle back in the 1800's. So it was real. Damn thing just had the tendency to blow your hand off when you shot it.

There still are revolver rifles.

Hell, I've recently seen a 12 gauge revolver rifle, custom made. About the silliest thing I've ever seen, but it works.

I don't see what it has to do with being Fallout though.

Technically that isn't a revolver since it doesn't, you know, revolve. It just has a circular magazine. I've got a Ruger hunting rifle chambered for .44 Magnum with a similar design.

Correct, the Johnson just has a weird magazine. Doesn't revolve at all.

Good idea, questionable implementation. Quickly became outdated as well.

*Edit
by thinking about it I could even imagine something like that as a early weapon to fit some post apoc game would be quite easy to manufacture I think, like the pipe rifle or something.

While very early on, we had revolvers, the problems are that they're finnicky and the timing of the cylinder has to be just right.

Got a problem with a revolver 'pistol'? Ok, the cylinder will burst or bulge, the frame will crack. Most likely you'll have an injured hand.

Got a problem with a revolver rifle? Hmz, chances are, you'll loose an eye or more.
Lever and Bolt actions are not that more complex, and a lot less likely to fail or get damaged.

 

[Ausir]

That's really the primary issue with current weapon design of Fallout games. All weapons are either real or totally bland. Or, well, let's face it: retarded beyond all imagination.

I like the look of AEP7/AER9 laser weapons.

 

[Sorrow]

There were severel real post-50's weapons in the original games.

H&K CAWS.
H&K G11.
Desert Eagle.
P90.

Original Fallout weapons were designed by Chris Taylor and the only modern weapon he put in was Desert Eagle because it was his favourite gun at that time. The only thing he has done when working on Fo2 was the manual.
People who worked on Fo2 weapons clearly lacked his taste and imagination, because they had to throw in a ton of RL weapons - CAWS, FN FAL, Pancor Jackhammer, S&W Model 29, M60, P90, LSW, Grease Gun, Thompson and XL70.

Also, they turned the unique .223 pistol into an ordinary weapon that was available in many places.

 

[UncannyGarlic]

There still are revolver rifles.
...
I don't see what it has to do with being Fallout though.

Not much, I just remember the first time I watched Wolf's Rain and saw Quent's gun I thought of the 10mm Pistol from Fallout, even though they look nothing alike.

Honestly, it looks kinda western inspired to me but I think that using more unusual weapon designs does help to make things seem more unique. I like the monitor ont he right as well.

 

[Mistrz]

That's really the primary issue with current weapon design of Fallout games. All weapons are either real or totally bland. Or, well, let's face it: retarded beyond all imagination.

I like the look of AEP7/AER9 laser weapons.

Those were kinda cool but I`m very disappointed that Watzz didn`t make into new game. I hope that Watzz will be back in F:NV.