Lakota indians declare independence from US

In truth your point mixed with brother nones brings up some important things.

We cant spend all day trying to recover what was lost in the past by some people (although the existence of israel really is pretty insane, i wrote a rather interesting paper about it, dating back to the history of when the nation of israel began to form and in the mid 1800s, up until its official creation). but the fact is, the past is the past, and should be left in the past.

That being said, what implications does this make about the integrity of governments and purposes of laws and treaties in the first place?

this isnt ancient history where the collective memory of generations is only held by the educated, this modern world isnt fit for conquests, because information spreads too fast and history is too well recorded.
old mentalities dont work anymore.
 
xdarkyrex said:
So let me get this right... if the abuse of the law happens by the government, people should seriously just stfu and get over it?

Considering all governments always everywhere break some laws, yes. If people protest against every infringement the government makes, then we have a problem, because the country becomes unmanageable.

You seem to think it is the government's task to uphold a 150 year-old treaty above taking care of their citizens and their rights. That is what's ridiculous here.

xdarkyrex said:
And technically this is not a secession, as they are not a state and do not pay taxes, they are their own entityt wtih very limited rights.

They are an entity within the framework of another entity trying to leave. That's a secession.

xdarkyrex said:
Are you suggested I and others in this country just look the other way while very blatant and obvious abuse happens to these people?

No, I'm suggesting you change the situation in a way that's actually beneficial for people involved rather than obsessed with a antique piece of paper. Now isn't that something?

xdarkyrex said:
As for "if something works, dont change it", one could argue the same thing about slavery or any other oppresive belief where the people getting the shaft are the minority.

Straw man.

xdarkyrex said:
As for the people who live within that land who are not part of the lakota, they are not being kicked out.

Oh no, just as long as they accede to everything these guys want from 'em.

xdarkyrex said:
Your rational absolutely amazes me "tons of government ignore their laws and the rights they have given people, therefor you should not care when this happens". That is what you're saying, right?

Oh yeah, that's really what I've been saying...

...Or perhaps I've been arguing that it is a government's task to protect its people from wrong before it is the government's task to uphold irrelevant treaties. Ah snap, ya think so?!

If this was a world where the rule of law always superseded the rights of man, I'd be worried.

Oddly enough, most of the Israel-boosters I've talked to so far are markedly peevish about how stupid this whole Lakota thing is...

As am I, I'm vaguely pro-Israel though I mostly believe the whole situation is insane. I'm pro-Israel for the same reason I'm against this stupidity, though, practical reasons.
 
Funny how everyone recognizes this is stepping out off and saying fuck-you to the treaty, thus going straight against the principle of "integrity" and "following laws" you've been espousing, darky.
 
Wow, this is already written history. I mean no taxes an all, big business just has to go to Lakota Nation now!

Structural hindrance to economic development on reservations: trust land. Trust lands have given tribes a land base and some cultural integrity, but they make it difficult to attract industry and commercial enterprises to the reservation. Trust land can only by leased by industries. Banks are usually unwilling to lend money towards construction on reservations because they may not be able to repossess the structure in a case of default.

Funny word trust land,
Reservations. In the U.S. there are only two kinds of reserved lands that are well-known: military and Indian. An Indian reservation is land reserved for a tribe when it relinquished its other land areas to the U.S. through treaties. More recently, Congressional acts, Executive Orders, and administrative acts have created reservations. Today some reservations have non-Indian residents and land owners.

There are approximately 275 Indian land areas in the U.S. administered as Indian reservations (reservations, pueblos, rancherias, communities, etc.). The largest is the Navajo Reservation of some 16 million acres of land in Arizona, New Mexico, and Utah. Many of the smaller reservations are less than 1,000 acres with the smallest less than 100 acres. On each reservation, the local governing authority is the tribal government.

Approximately 56.2 million acres of land are held in trust by the United States for various Indian tribes and individuals. Much of this is reservation land; however, not all reservation land is trust land. On behalf of the United States, the Secretary of the Interior serves as trustee for such lands with many routine trustee responsibilities delegated to BIA officials.

And, as to the legality of succession,
Laws. As U.S. citizens, Indians are generally subject to federal, state, and local laws. On Indian reservations, however, only federal and tribal laws apply to members of the tribe unless the Congress provides otherwise. In federal law, the Assimilative Crimes Act makes any violation of state criminal law a federal offense on reservations. Most tribes now maintain tribal court systems and facilities to detain tribal members convicted of certain offenses within the boundaries of the reservation.

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0192524.html

All that is going to happen is some land rezoning, and some congressional provisions.
 
They're going to follow the Vienna convention! They better pay some license money to Austria for that.
 
http://fletcher.tufts.edu/multi/texts/Vienna.txt

Cases not within the scope of the present Convention

The fact that the present Convention does not apply to the effects of a
succession of States in respect of international agreements concluded between
States and other subjects of international law or in respect of international
agreements not in written form shall not affect:

(a) the application to such cases of any of the rules set forth in the
present Convention to which they are subject under international law
independently of the Convention;

(b) the application as between States of the present Convention to the
effects of a succession of States in respect of international agreements to
which other subjects of international law are also parties.

Aghh Law jargon.
Is this current or applicable?
 
Looking at that text makes me think of Interplay's license deal with Bethesda.

6. NATION must at all times comply to QUALITY STANDARDS as set by THE OTHER NATION.

7. If NATION cannot within 75 years fulfil their obligations towards ANOTHER NATION then they jolly well have to PACK UP AND MOVE TO GREENLAND BECAUSE YOU FAIL AS A NATION.
 
Racist and Hater...

How many times have I said already that I have full respect for the natives that actually make something of themselves, in fact I am friends with a few of them?

The only time I truly typed in any kind of hatred is when 'poverty' came up, you don't effing know how blessed these guys are, try heading out to New Guinea and trying their kind of BS there, you'd be lucky not to get killed by a highlander before the day was through. If not a highlander, perhaps REAL Malaria, or hey maybe you'd just get hit by a car by fluke, happens all the time, maybe dysentery, or maybe just a bad bug in your food.

It's a hole of their own making, whether it's the chiefs that are doing it or the people themselves becoming complacent with what they're handed out it doesn't matter, the end they're pissed because nobody recognizes their plight while there's a damn easy cure for it:

Stop being a bunch of effing hermits and integrate with society like everyone else, but stop acting like a drain hole for everyone's hard earned money because you feel it's your god given right.

Plain and simple right?

P.S.

10 Billion, you have got to be kidding me, do you even register how much money that is? 10, 000, 000, 000 DOLLARS, usually patents like that would sell for millions, not billions, I'm just being generous with the distrobution.
 
Mord_Sith said:
Racist and Hater...

...Charming.


Mord_Sith said:
The only time I truly typed in any kind of hatred is when 'poverty' came up, you don't effing know how blessed these guys are

I mean you no offense. Your statement truly expresses your ignorance in relation to this subject. Allow me to give you an example of successful Indian entrepreneurship of one tribe and the short end of the stick handed to another. Two reservations geographically parallel from one another and are two different worlds.

The Puyallup Indian reservation (Most urbanized Indian reservation in the USA) & the Skokomish Indian reservation.

The Puyallup had the fortune (or misfortune) of being next to the city of Tacoma (2nd nearly 1st largest city in Washington state). This allowed them to create large businesses and thrive. Most of the tribe is now white as integration with the outside world, not so difficult with a city the size of Tacoma nestled against them.

Now let us look at the amazing Skokomish Indians. Several hundred miles away from the Puyallup in an area with very little to no urban development. They have no grand casino's or other businesses pulling in countless millions for the tribe as the Puyallup Indians do. Many live in make shift trailers with enough resources to survive below the National poverty level. As with many other tribes their health is stupefying, much lower than the National average.

I often visited the Skokomish and Puyallup Indians growing up as a child. The Skokomish were always eager to trade fish for other resources. They are a warm and welcoming people despite their lodge in life. Like the Puyallup Indians, integration is not a problem for the Skokomish as the town of Skokomish is mostly white. Yet, their white neighbors live a life of luxury in comparison.

Mord_Sith said:
It's a hole of their own making, whether it's the chiefs that are doing it or the people themselves becoming complacent with what they're handed out it doesn't matter, the end they're pissed because nobody recognizes their plight while there's a damn easy cure for it:

Stop being a bunch of effing hermits and integrate with society like everyone else, but stop acting like a drain hole for everyone's hard earned money because you feel it's your god given right.

Thanks for your insulting words, they degrade this community as well as yourself. Integration may be a problem for some, but that is not the problem in many if not most cases (note my comparison above). Many areas the Indians were forced to settle down were and still are void of "civilization". This now minority of the USA, like other minorities continue to live no where close to that of what their white counterparts. Yes there are successes among any minority but when one looks at the whole they can not possibly deny that their is a problem.

The Lakota are trying to send a message. That something is wrong with the world we share in the USA. The plight of the American Indians is not of their own doing. Even were that to be the case we should not abide by them attempting to tackle their challenge alone. That is not what the United States of America is about. We help our brothers and our neighbors, no matter the color of their skin, their religious or political views. So we here in the USA need to tackle this together, for their problem is our problem. Not by throwing money into a bottomless pit; but by working together to achieve our common goal. At the risk of sounding sentimental, remember that we all cherish our children's future, breathe the same air and we are all mortal.


Note: My previous posts were not an attempt to chalk up all Indians accomplishments to that of the Northern American Indians. They, like the Northern American Indians have been raped to the extent of complete decay. Revolutions such as Zapata's all be it successful ultimately fail due to the degradation of their world.[/u]
 
This now minority of the USA, like other minorities continue to live no where close to that of what their white counterparts. Yes there are successes among any minority but when one looks at the whole they can not possibly deny that their is a problem.

Minority, RIGHT, I hate to break it to you, but in about 5 years, at least where I live, they're going to be the Majority due to their exploitation of the welfare system and child farming.

Ignorant of one as I said I can only speak for the area that surrounds me, HOWEVER if I can make ends meet at 7 bucks Canadian an hour and still manage to pull enough together to own my own house I can't see why these blighters are in such a bad way!

That is SIGNIFICANTLY below the poverty line, you know what my staple food is? KD, instant noodles, and if I'm lucky I can grab a bag of mixed veggies, however I am working on it and am actually trying to make something of myself rather than whine about how little I get.

If you don't like the locale or living conditions of the area MOVE, for crissakes man, the African American population got handed a broom handle up their ass for several decades, but look now, they're an integral part of society.

Meanwhile the Indians in hermitage constantly complain, and get handed billions of dollars that the working class has to shovel out of their pockets to support them while they can be gracefully found practicing one of the more common activities in downtown Winnipeg (although they are not the only ones who do this, it's a staggering amount that are compared to the Caucasian variety), that's right folks, the honorable tradition of panhandling. On top of the treaty money they get, the welfare children that come about (once again this isn't solely the activity of natives however it is once again a staggering comparison against their Caucasian counterparts) they have the gall to ask for more because the welfare check didn't cover their gallant lifestyles of Native American Traditionalists.

Stop me if I'm going to fast for you, maybe it's hard to see them as anything but the wounded deer, but when you live with this propaganda shoved in your face for decades now while living in squalor compared to those gits you might have an inkling of why I'm sick of them getting paid to sit on their arses!

As for the Skokomish indians, They live in trailers correct, move on then if the local does not support their livelihood, it's not such a strange concept, people do it all the time, get a job, pull your weight, and surprisingly enough people will hire you if you try and actually work.

I hate to sound cold about this but it's a fact of life, if you cannot support yourself don't expect others to willingly help, move off the reserves if they cannot support you, live like the rest of us poor slobs rather than get special treatment because you're born different.

You're welcome for the insulting words, would you like some more?

As for being void of civilization, a lode of bullocks, if they can speak, they can find a job, you'd be surprised how low the standards are for most manu jobs, as for being a minority, I must beg to differ, every corner I turn, everywhere I look, I see plenty of them.

Wikipedia:
The largest ethnic group is English (20.2%), followed by French (15.8%), Scottish (14.0%), Irish (12.9%), German (9.3%), Italian (4.3%), Chinese (3.7%), Ukrainian (3.6%), and First Nations (3.4%); 40% of respondents identified their ethnicity as "Canadian." Canada's aboriginal population is growing almost twice as fast as the Canadian average. In 2001, 13.4% of the population belonged to non-aboriginal visible minorities.

Gives you a bit of a clue as to how much of a 'minority' they really are, at this rate not only does it speak volumes about their reproduction rate, but also about what'll be happening in about 5-10 years, they aren't vanishing anymore, and if they keep growing at their current rate we will not be able to support them anymore if they stay jobless.

If they do not move on to their own feet soon odds are it will be cut out from under them, not by my hand, but by the simple fact that if we do not our entire economy will crash and burn because of it.

The plight of the American Indians is not of their own doing. Even were that to be the case we should not abide by them attempting to tackle their challenge alone. That is not what the United States of America is about. We help our brothers and our neighbors, no matter the color of their skin, their religious or political views.

You have got to be kidding me, American history is littered with hate crimes and religious tailorings that rival the English!

Here's a few:
Salem witch hunts
KKK
Slavery
Sundown Town http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sundown_town
Sexism
...

Just to name a few.

We are all mortal, so why should I pay tithes to the Natives for a crime I am not accused of, why do they get paid for being just as mortal as I am?
 
Mord_Sith said:
We are all mortal, so why should I pay tithes to the Natives for a crime I am not accused of, why do they get paid for being just as mortal as I am?

Yeah, infact, no treaties or laws should last longer than a generation!

Why the hell should I obey laws that were made 100 years ago?
It's not like I voted on them.

fyi, there is nothing in american history as evil as what has been done to the indians. Slavery is the only close thing, and even it is not nearly as bad as near genocide.
 
xdarkyrex said:
fyi, there is nothing in american history as evil as what has been done to the indians. Slavery is the only close thing, and even it is not nearly as bad as near genocide.

Don't worry if your guilt trip rolls over contemporary values and priorities. That's not as important as the guilt trip. Obviously.
 
What guilt trip?
I think we should let them have a tiny fraction of the land we took from them. Just a tiny bit. I don't have to feel guilty to have altruistic thoughts.
 
1200 BILLION DOLLARS, and you still want to give them more, well I won't stop you, but why do they deserve more than the American National Defecit.

Wikipedia:
The United States has posted a trade deficit since the 1970s, and it has been rapidly increasing since 1997. The US trade deficit hit a record high of 763.6 billion dollars in 2006, up from 716.7 billion dollars in 2005.

They have been given more than you owe to other countries already, if you think that this deficit is going to disappear into air like the fantasy money from the credit card you've got to be kidding.
 
See my calculations earlier, or were you not paying me any heed then?

Mord_Sith said:
They never had a 'country' to begin with, they believed the land was to be shared by all, and as far as them deserving anything let's just do a quick calculation shall we, let's even low-ball it, let's estimate that about 3 billion gets to them a year up north here and not count welfare or anything else they're getting.

From 1492 (when the majority of the European and Spanish colonization was in full swing) to now they would have received roughly 1545 BILLION dollars (not counting monetary fluxuation however the value fluctuates based on the dollar that they receive anyways.)

How much do you figure a country is worth, even one the size of the US?

--EDIT--

Forgive me, I seem to have erred on the year, 1492 was the first discovery, 1583 was when colonization was going on, adjusting my calculations it would be around 1272 Billion dollars since then.
 
Well Mord_Sith, it seems we should just "ignore each other until we both go away" as I do not see you understanding much of what I have to say.

Dark, giving land to me does not seem like the solution. The lack of integration caused by forcing the American Indians to their current reservations created the vary problem we are discussing today. This is a problem that many of our ancestors created, and a problem we should work to rectify. Where does one start?

Edit: Oh and Mord_Sith... Please do not use the "if you don't like it move" statement. Thats quite possibly the most idiotic thing anyone has ever said. I tire of folk telling me or others to move away (especially when its not possible) if things are not working. What ever happened to "I can" or "I will" make a difference in life? You can not run from your problems. You have to face them head on.
 
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