Legion Territory Speculation

[NMLevesque]

Yes, and then assimilated them as per the lore. Ulysses describes it as betrayal for those that ally with Caesar, with respect to his own tribe, and the White Legs. Just as it's explained what would happen to the Great Khans, and what we can easily assume would happen to the Fiends (chems are banned). It's what Frumentarii do apparently, when they're not too busy doing lotteries or spying.

 

[AmericanRed]

I've always envisioned the Legion to be more than just a huge "mobile" slave army, so I created my own headcannon to support them more as a society;

1. Not all of legionnaires are slaves, not really realistic that "everyone is property of caesar". I imagine Centurions/Veterans to be wealthy land/slave owners as a reward for prolongued military service. They form some sort of aristocratic class, and are the REAL reason behind land expansion, slave trade and conquest.
2. Civil Servants are the "free" people of conquered towns and form a middle-class of merchants, artisans, etc adding to the tension of class struggle inside this "ancient" society. Many of them got rich fast through trading and other not-so-legal activities too. Maybe IF the imperial structure based on Caesar is destroyed after Hover Dam, a civil war can start around these two conflicting interests.
3. Slaves are the backbone of society and slave revolts are common, but brutally suppressed by military law. They're just waiting their moment to arise and slay their masters. The Player could have the option to join the revolt just as we had in Fallout 3's The Pitt.
4. The "Cult of Mars" is a huge thing. Children are indoctrinated into the cult of war and bred into strong soldiers or able slaves. The merchant class obviously questions the lack of religious freedom. I would even put some "secret" escaped New Caananites as merchants pushing to convert Arizona into their faith.
5. The territory is mostly comprised by fortified settlements, huge farmlands and open stretches of desert, where outlaws and even non-legion tribals hide in resistance. I also imagine the architecture to be quite unique and culture to be quite different from standard NCR's "wild west america" theme.

 

[CT Phipps]

My headcanon is there's a strict divide between "Caesar's Legion" and "Caesar's territory."

1. Caesar's Legion is the misogynist cult of personality that forms the entirety of his army. It is composed of all the tribals he's assimilated into one single army, their slaves (sexual or otherwise), the priesthood, and the soldiers he's indoctrinated into his cult. It's very much a African warlord kind of situation with children being part of the organization as well as Caesar's fake religion. It's also highly mobile without much in the way of roots.

2. Caesar's territory more or less functions like a "normal" society with every town they conquer giving them tribute in the form of food, weapons, and other supplies. It's not a complete slave state with families, children, and so on. However, all are subordinate to the Legion and their draconian laws. Caesar doesn't attempt to turn all children into Roman worshiping soldiers or baby factories, though, because he knows he needs supply lines and subjects far in excess of his military.

In practice, they are terrified of him and women are forced into subordinate positions.

 

[AmericanRed]

My headcanon is there's a strict divide between "Caesar's Legion" and "Caesar's territory."

1. Caesar's Legion is the misogynist cult of personality that forms the entirety of his army. It is composed of all the tribals he's assimilated into one single army, their slaves (sexual or otherwise), the priesthood, and the soldiers he's indoctrinated into his cult. It's very much a African warlord kind of situation with children being part of the organization as well as Caesar's fake religion. It's also highly mobile without much in the way of roots.

2. Caesar's territory more or less functions like a "normal" society with every town they conquer giving them tribute in the form of food, weapons, and other supplies. It's not a complete slave state with families, children, and so on. However, all are subordinate to the Legion and their draconian laws. Caesar doesn't attempt to turn all children into Roman worshiping soldiers or baby factories, though, because he knows he needs supply lines and subjects far in excess of his military.

In practice, they are terrified of him and women are forced into subordinate positions.

The whole "terrifying leader" thing wouldn't work with a small raider band for too long before the other guys decided to slit his throat, let alone with an entire army that rivals the NCR. Ruling by force isn't enough. He would need some sort of society or culture to support his ideal...

 

[CT Phipps]

The whole "terrifying leader" thing wouldn't work with a small raider band for too long before the other guys decided to slit his throat, let alone with an entire army that rivals the NCR. Ruling by force isn't enough. He would need some sort of society or culture to support his ideal...

It worked for Stalin. His inner circle was terrified of him. But the whole point of Caesar is he's worshiped by his army and hated by his slaves.

 

[AmericanRed]

It worked for Stalin. His inner circle was terrified of him. But the whole point of Caesar is he's worshiped by his army and hated by his slaves.

Nope. It hasn't worked like that for Caesar, Stalin or any other "absolute" leader you heard about. History is way more complex than that. Even Hitler had opposition and had to deal with them, and that not always meant just "kill them". Governing is more like the Tropico games, where you need to pay attention to the demands of different sects of society [catholics, capitalists, communists, nationalists, etc..] than some sort of "absolute leader" dystopia.

 

[CT Phipps]

Nope. It hasn't worked like that for Caesar, Stalin or any other "absolute" leader you heard about. History is way more complex than that. Even Hitler had opposition and had to deal with them. Governing is more like the Tropico games, where you need to pay attention to the demands of different sects of society [catholics, capitalists, communists, nationalists, etc..] than some sort of "absolute leader" dystopia.

You and I have different definitions of "worked" since he builds an entire nation around his absolute will.

He's a monster who needs to be put down but that's because it worked and he has an army behind him.

 

[AmericanRed]

You and I have different definitions of "worked" since he builds an entire nation around his absolute will.

He's a monster who needs to be put down but that's because it worked and he has an army behind him.

No one ever "built an entire nation around his absolute will", not even so-called "absolute monarchs". A nation is always a collective of different social-economic interests and the leader is the one that knows how to please them all at some potency while furthering his own. Even in the game you can notice Lanius, Lucius, Vulpes all have different conceptions of what the Legion is, yet, they all seem to bow to Caesar, at least for the moment. That's only one example of how complex the whole thing is...

 

[CT Phipps]

No one ever "built an entire nation around his absolute will", not even so-called "absolute monarchs". A nation is always a collective of different social-economic interests and the leader is the one that knows how to please them all at some potency while furthering his own. Even in the game you can notice Lanius, Lucius, Vulpes all have different conceptions of what the Legion is, yet, they all seem to bow to Caesar, at least for the moment. That's only one example of how complex the whole thing is...

Well I still think it's divided between Caesar's Legion and his conquered territory.

 

[wanamingo89790]

No one ever "built an entire nation around his absolute will", not even so-called "absolute monarchs". A nation is always a collective of different social-economic interests and the leader is the one that knows how to please them all at some potency while furthering his own. Even in the game you can notice Lanius, Lucius, Vulpes all have different conceptions of what the Legion is, yet, they all seem to bow to Caesar, at least for the moment. That's only one example of how complex the whole thing is...

To me Caesar is less Caesar and more Stalin. They both share the trait of being propeganda infused gods. Sure, The Legions complex like any nation, but before Caesar dies he still has the ability, through force of personality, to hold the legion together almost singlehandedly.

 

[wanamingo89790]

Once the generation who were raised as tribals dies off the legion is gonna be far more cohesive, but when Caesar dies a whole bunch of the population is still not 100% assimilated. Its that interim period between when Caesar dies off and when the first generation of legion citizens dies off that there will be the most trouble. Spartacus style revolts n all. If the legion can survive that they have a real hope at becoming a structured civilization with a decent life cycle.

 

[CT Phipps]

Once the generation who were raised as tribals dies off the legion is gonna be far more cohesive, but when Caesar dies a whole bunch of the population is still not 100% assimilated. Its that interim period between when Caesar dies off and when the first generation of legion citizens dies off that there will be the most trouble. Spartacus style revolts n all. If the legion can survive that they have a real hope at becoming a structured civilization with a decent life cycle.

There's even deeper issues as Caesar doesn't have any actual people who can serve as his heirs. He's claimed to b a God and no one else can replace him.

 

[AmericanRed]

To me Caesar is less Caesar and more Stalin. They both share the trait of being propeganda infused gods. Sure, The Legions complex like any nation, but before Caesar dies he still has the ability, through force of personality, to hold the legion together almost singlehandedly.

Well, there are surely strong leaders that represent a lot [via propaganda or action, or both], but It takes more than that to hold a nation together. The Legion stands together for its ideology of survival of the fittest and its monolithic culture, not that it's a good thing, mind you, but It works for them. The most interesting phase from the Legion would be when Caesar dies...

I can imagine Lanius, Lucius or even Vulpes vying to maintain the Legion together, despite how difficult that would be.

 

[KingArthur]

Historically, Caius Julius Caesar made great strides in improving the lives of Roman commons. From there, his successor Octavian (Augustus for the uninitiated, though I’m pretty sure you all knew that already) fought a war on multiple fronts against Brutus and Mark Antony for control of the Roman Republic.

What I’m saying is that Edward Sallow, in his own fucked up way, presents in the Legion an opportunity for a better life and comraderie for those deemed worthy. Much as Caesar did, Sallow is trying to make a real difference in the Wasteland. Also like Caesar, I have a feeling that while Lanius, Vulpes and Lucius will try to maintain order after his death, there will be infighting. Only question is which major (or possibly minor, like fucking Dead Sea staging a Hail Mary takeover or some shit) legionary is going to be left standing and remake Caesar’s Legion in his image, as Augustus did through statues and public works, games, etc.

IMO, the Legion will endure, even if it isn’t “The Legion” anymore. Only question is who’ll be in charge to remake it.

Also, @AmericanRed and @wanamingo89790 welcome to my thread and to NMA! Some good people here. You’ll like it. Or not. Eh.

 

[CT Phipps]

I think it's important to note Arcade Gannon calls bullshit on Caesar being anything like Rome or Julius Caesar in particular. Arcade says something like, "Where are the roads, the forums, and the aqueducts?" Basically, Caesar has ignored all of Rome's cultural achievements and even their treatment of women (which was far from how he does it) to make a theme park version of them that is all the worst elements ramped up.

 

[KingArthur]

That’s why I worded it as “his own fucked up way”. He didn’t make an empire, he made an army. Talking to Caesar, he states that once he has his Rome the empire will come later. Whether or not he’s lying is anyone’s guess

 

[CT Phipps]

That’s why I worded it as “his own fucked up way”. He didn’t make an empire, he made an army. Talking to Caesar, he states that once he has his Rome the empire will come later. Whether or not he’s lying is anyone’s guess

It's interesting where he intends, if ever, to stop. He needs Vegas because he thinks Denver is a shitty capital for his kingdom and he wants to set up his kingdom there.

However, he wants the White Glove to be his new nobility and doesn't care if they're cannibals.

He basically intends to bypass his own people to create Patricians from the Tribals in NV.

THEN go after NCR,

 

[KingArthur]

I’ll give you that one. It’s odd that he’d make his army the plebeian class, rather than wait for an economy to develop and wait for the free market to pick and choose its own favorites. I can’t imagine Caesar approves of the profligate gambling on the Strip, so it’s not like the White Gloves and other families would remain rich for long once other Legion businesses sprung up

 

[AmericanRed]

That’s why I worded it as “his own fucked up way”. He didn’t make an empire, he made an army. Talking to Caesar, he states that once he has his Rome the empire will come later. Whether or not he’s lying is anyone’s guess

Maybe he didn't really have the resources and stability to start an empire. It really seems to me that he envisions the annexation of Vegas and NCR as the consolidation of his idelogy as a real nation or a true empire, the scenario of Arizona falling into civil war after his death is much more interesting though.

Hey @AureliusofPhoenix, thanks for the welcome! I'm already enjoying NMA quite a bit.

 

[KingArthur]

You make a fair point there; the Legion does give off the vibe of itinerant raiders looking for a home base; Caesar’s Rome. With control of Hoover Dam and the Strip, Caesar finally has that home base that he can build into a major settlement (at least by Legion standards rather than by waster standards).

But I agree, the prospect of civil war amongst the Legion is more interesting; I’m most interested in who Caesar would appoint as his Octavian, because I can’t bring myself to believe that it’d be that gorilla Lanius. Lucius states that Lanius is next in line, but I like to think Caesar is smarter than to put that pituitary retard in charge. I feel like it’d be like the Roman emperor Maximus, where he was beaten during a squabble with a co-emperor; which goes back to the Legion Civil War question.

And don’t mention it man. Glad to hear you’re getting along well