Probably planned to kill the entire succession line. Or something like that.
The Legion killed his wife and unborn kid, he will kill all of Caesars kids too! Revenge like in some 80's action flick.
Legion Territory Speculation
- Thread starter KingArthur
- Start date
The Legion killed his wife and unborn kid, he will kill all of Caesars kids too! Revenge like in some 80's action flick.
NMLevesque
Commie Ghost
That makes sense. Nothing like revenge to make someone obsess about politics. ;P
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
My understanding was that the Legion is an army rather than a true government or territory. With that being said, I'd have to agree with some of the others in here that it's likely fairly normal Wasteland, but with lots of Legion outposts, forts, patrols dotted around linking settlements and clearing out Raider tribes. The reason they have such insane territory claim (In-game content suggets they go as far East as the Oklahoma panhandle) is because unlike the NCR they aren't really governing it, per say. They're a nomadic army that, in all honesty, whatever forces exist in dotted lines throughout their "territory" (i.e regions they've fought in and won which they can now claim as their own through technicality and bluff) are likely entirely dedicated to just feeding the war machine of the bulk army in the West and not much else. I doubt there's a faux-Roman culture going on in El Paso or whatever, if anything the major Legion cities in Arizona are just like huge versions of the Fort (though likely ran by skeleton crew now).
What's interesting to me however is Legion moral rule. Their regulations against degenerate behaviour (chems etc), do they extend to non-Legion settlements within their territory? I can't imagine so since it wouldn't really gel with their nomad army structure, but at the same time I can't imagine them letting that go by either. Maybe it's a thing of "nobody really cares but just don't be hitting up psycho in downtown Denver when the Legionaries are coming through. Otherwise they'll crucify you next to the town thief". The Legion would probably swipe in and collect slaves whenver they felt the need, too. I imagine living in non-army Legion territory would likely be a rule by fear. You're mostly left alone but whenever the Legion needs anything of you, you give it without question, and the fear of their wrath is enough to keep everyone in line even when they aren't immediately around.
What's interesting to me however is Legion moral rule. Their regulations against degenerate behaviour (chems etc), do they extend to non-Legion settlements within their territory? I can't imagine so since it wouldn't really gel with their nomad army structure, but at the same time I can't imagine them letting that go by either. Maybe it's a thing of "nobody really cares but just don't be hitting up psycho in downtown Denver when the Legionaries are coming through. Otherwise they'll crucify you next to the town thief". The Legion would probably swipe in and collect slaves whenver they felt the need, too. I imagine living in non-army Legion territory would likely be a rule by fear. You're mostly left alone but whenever the Legion needs anything of you, you give it without question, and the fear of their wrath is enough to keep everyone in line even when they aren't immediately around.
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Sorry it took so long for me to reply @AlphaPromethean ; but I mostly agree with your view of non-military Legion land. I’m also of the opinion that their chem restrictions and such are in effect within their land, but I also would have to say that I think it’s more... free, than NCR land. I speculate as such precisely because of the whole “we leave you alone, but give us what we want” thing. Imo what lies beyond the Mojave likely has some form of Legion government, but aside from donating men and materiel to the Legion are left to their own, and mete our their own frontier justice except for the most egregious violations of Legion law. I mostly say this because I agree with your first paragraph as well; people are valued by what they can give to the Legion. And that Legion culture is defined by self reliance and strength. Things people cannot exercise when they in tyranny, which so many people believe the Legion to be.
What people don’t realize is that we see Caesar’s Legion in their wartime behavior, and through the lens of the NCR; I made a whole different thread about this (shameless plug), but Legion “atrocities” are acts of wartime terror. It is in no way an indication of the Legion’s conduct at home. Do criminals sometimes get crucified? Probably. But if I had to imagine anything, it’d be early Rome. Xenophobic, trade-rich and occasionally brutal. My opinion is that the Legion’s mind will open in terms of that xenophobia; because Caesar or his successor will realize that annihilating the culture of those they subjugate leads to Spartacus-style slave rebellions.
What people don’t realize is that we see Caesar’s Legion in their wartime behavior, and through the lens of the NCR; I made a whole different thread about this (shameless plug), but Legion “atrocities” are acts of wartime terror. It is in no way an indication of the Legion’s conduct at home. Do criminals sometimes get crucified? Probably. But if I had to imagine anything, it’d be early Rome. Xenophobic, trade-rich and occasionally brutal. My opinion is that the Legion’s mind will open in terms of that xenophobia; because Caesar or his successor will realize that annihilating the culture of those they subjugate leads to Spartacus-style slave rebellions.
NMLevesque
Commie Ghost
Except for all the slaves, restrictions on knowledge and tech, etc.
*reliance on slavery.
Perpetual wartime behavior as indicated by numerous characters in and out of the Legion, including Caesar himself.
Well, that’s why I wrote the second half of that paragraph. Caesar or his successor will see the flaws in their system, or be destroyed by them. You’re obviously of the latter view. I’m of the former.
Well enough cultural both pre, and post-legionization, has groomed it's inhabitants enough to have a chance of producing tribal/raider/splinter/nomadic/pastgloryglorifieres groups alike. Which would make for a pretty interesting setting for a post Legion territories supremacy thing.
Bascially we have to think the "Migration period"
HydroFlame
The Vanishing Act
As a lady, Caeser's Legion is very unappealing to me. I'd rather not end up as a sex slave and brood mare. Have you seen some of those slave women? They carry pack that have got to cause major back problems. Lol.
No wonder all their dialogue consists of is “Excuse me”. They’re in such pain that they can’t even think anymore. Which is both funny and really depressing.
StopSigntheVendingMachine
narcissistic sociopath
Having no imagination and going off of sound bytes from FANDOM.com, I think Caesar's Land is entirely made up of the Four Corners: Utah, Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona serving as the 'capital region' because its mentioned so much in New Vegas. Either because Arizona was their most recent conquest or because the Legion was founded there. I forgot. Assuming that the Midwest Brotherhood of Steel's territory from Tactics' is canon, the Legion would be cut off from advancing further east, at least while they were at war with the NCR. Besides, the Midwest Brotherhood would be worthy opponents of Caesar's Legion, and might actually be the faction to finally crush them.
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I can see that being possible. Frankly, if the series didn’t abandon them after Tactics, I’d have loved to see more of the Midwest Brotherhood.
However, I also get flashbacks to the battle between the NCR and the West Coast Brotherhood of Steel; be aware that if the Republic could fight that Brotherhood chapter to a stalemate, the Legion could do the same in the Midwest. Would their push still be stopped? Most likely. But the Legion finally being crushed, while a possibility for sure, is more unlikely given a harder look.
Oh, and welcome, new blood. Hope you stick around.
However, I also get flashbacks to the battle between the NCR and the West Coast Brotherhood of Steel; be aware that if the Republic could fight that Brotherhood chapter to a stalemate, the Legion could do the same in the Midwest. Would their push still be stopped? Most likely. But the Legion finally being crushed, while a possibility for sure, is more unlikely given a harder look.
Oh, and welcome, new blood. Hope you stick around.
Atomic Postman
Vault Archives Overseer
Resurrecting a slightly older thread here, but some musings on Legion territory:
Firstly, it seems that when you stop to read over it all it's likely that Caesar's claim over "all" of New Mexico is likely a bluff (or perhaps just misunderstanding/disregard of strict borders as is to be expected in a Wasteland without westphalian ideas) as in much as his control over Utah is. Considering that Denver is marked by Lanius and Ulysses as being effectively the Legion's most eastern frontier, parallel to the Mojave as it's most western and both equally difficult to besiege.
I'd say a good rule of thumb for the Legion's easternly border is probably Interstate 25 at the Colorado/New Mexico border. This would especially make sense with their pre-established capturing/interaction with the Midwestern Brotherhood based out at Cheynne mountain. Though, if the Legion managed to overcome then during their Denver campaign and it was supposed to be their main HQ, I imagine the Midwest BoS is in a very dire state indeed. Or never was in a good one, depending on how they actually exist in the canon.
Secondly, though this is more speculative than my last point. Caesar's claims may not be bluffs at all, but what he considers control/claim is just fundamentally different to what our assumptions are. Namely, he likely isn't at all thinking about map borders beyond easy reference for region naming. His claims could be more-so fixated on the power balance in the respective regions, i.e how unchallenged his "influence" or claim is. Even if the Legion doesn't literally stretch to the border of Kansas within New Mexico, if the Legion has absorbed or destroyed basically all of the main or relevant societies within the state, and the rest is barren Wasteland, then the state is his. Compare it to say, the Fallout 1 world map (i.e picture hypothetical New Mexico wasteland maps in a similar fashion), if Caesar is coming from the southwest, and sieges Boneyard, Hub, Brotherhood and Necropolis. Does it matter if his territory literally reaches Mariposa, Vault 15 or the Glow? Not really, no. The region is his. But in the technical sense, the Legion's most eastern point would be Necropolis.
This actually gives more credence to his approach in Colorado and Utah. "Much of the Utah" is his because he's disintegrated various tribes there already, destroyed the state's most powerful and basically only point of civilization and has a highly populated, well armed nomadic raider-tribe under his beck and call. Are there any Legion stationed at the Great Salt Lake? No. But it doesn't matter, because his influence/power within the state is dominant and growing, though he can't claim it completely as there are still large pockets of competition/resistance (surviving New Canaanites, Sorrows, Dead Horses etc) and the same is likely true of Colorado. I'd imagine his ease of access also plays a part, he claims less of Colorado because navigating and squeezing resources is a logistical nightmare.
My third point connects to my second, in that I think people underestimate the savagery/primitive state of the Four Corner Wasteland, and how they haven't as been as developmentally lucky as the Mojave or California. We are given flavour of this in Honest Hearts, where Utah is very much painted as a completely primitive state. New Canaan is the only place safe/worth trading with, and the region is otherwise inhabited by outright spear-chucking tribals, nomadic primitive raider-tribes or stationary warlords with "Gas-station forts". I.e in Utah without New Canaanites, your highest standard of civilization is basically equivalent to Motor-Runner or Driver Nephi. Raul and Caesar both imply that Arizona, and by extension the rest of the Legion's territory is very much the same way. Pockets of civilization surrounded by a majority population of tribalistic nomads.
Thus to my mind, the Legion has effectively pulled a more rape-y katamari damacy on the entirety of the societies within the comparatively barren Four-Corners Wasteland and in that way their claims are both legitimate whilst also the Legion itself still maintains its role as a purely nomadic army that takes its entire rolling momentum wherever it goes. As Dale Barton shows, pockets of subservient civilization exist within these territories but they are minimal and were always the absolute minority compared to the majority tribal population (which is now absorbed entirely into the Legion) of the Four Corner states. Which is why the Mojave and the West are so critical/important to the Legion: Not only will it represent a fundamental change in the structure of the Legion, but the vastly more civilized and connected lands of the Mojave and California will force the Legion to adopt entirely new methodss and ways of running their territory/claims. Arizona is likely a crucible of Legion millitary power/control and likely has numerous camps/war-settlements feeding into the Mojave, but Legion territorial claim is all about the power and influence rather than literal borders, trade routes and stationed garrisons as with the NCR.
Firstly, it seems that when you stop to read over it all it's likely that Caesar's claim over "all" of New Mexico is likely a bluff (or perhaps just misunderstanding/disregard of strict borders as is to be expected in a Wasteland without westphalian ideas) as in much as his control over Utah is. Considering that Denver is marked by Lanius and Ulysses as being effectively the Legion's most eastern frontier, parallel to the Mojave as it's most western and both equally difficult to besiege.
I'd say a good rule of thumb for the Legion's easternly border is probably Interstate 25 at the Colorado/New Mexico border. This would especially make sense with their pre-established capturing/interaction with the Midwestern Brotherhood based out at Cheynne mountain. Though, if the Legion managed to overcome then during their Denver campaign and it was supposed to be their main HQ, I imagine the Midwest BoS is in a very dire state indeed. Or never was in a good one, depending on how they actually exist in the canon.
Secondly, though this is more speculative than my last point. Caesar's claims may not be bluffs at all, but what he considers control/claim is just fundamentally different to what our assumptions are. Namely, he likely isn't at all thinking about map borders beyond easy reference for region naming. His claims could be more-so fixated on the power balance in the respective regions, i.e how unchallenged his "influence" or claim is. Even if the Legion doesn't literally stretch to the border of Kansas within New Mexico, if the Legion has absorbed or destroyed basically all of the main or relevant societies within the state, and the rest is barren Wasteland, then the state is his. Compare it to say, the Fallout 1 world map (i.e picture hypothetical New Mexico wasteland maps in a similar fashion), if Caesar is coming from the southwest, and sieges Boneyard, Hub, Brotherhood and Necropolis. Does it matter if his territory literally reaches Mariposa, Vault 15 or the Glow? Not really, no. The region is his. But in the technical sense, the Legion's most eastern point would be Necropolis.
This actually gives more credence to his approach in Colorado and Utah. "Much of the Utah" is his because he's disintegrated various tribes there already, destroyed the state's most powerful and basically only point of civilization and has a highly populated, well armed nomadic raider-tribe under his beck and call. Are there any Legion stationed at the Great Salt Lake? No. But it doesn't matter, because his influence/power within the state is dominant and growing, though he can't claim it completely as there are still large pockets of competition/resistance (surviving New Canaanites, Sorrows, Dead Horses etc) and the same is likely true of Colorado. I'd imagine his ease of access also plays a part, he claims less of Colorado because navigating and squeezing resources is a logistical nightmare.
My third point connects to my second, in that I think people underestimate the savagery/primitive state of the Four Corner Wasteland, and how they haven't as been as developmentally lucky as the Mojave or California. We are given flavour of this in Honest Hearts, where Utah is very much painted as a completely primitive state. New Canaan is the only place safe/worth trading with, and the region is otherwise inhabited by outright spear-chucking tribals, nomadic primitive raider-tribes or stationary warlords with "Gas-station forts". I.e in Utah without New Canaanites, your highest standard of civilization is basically equivalent to Motor-Runner or Driver Nephi. Raul and Caesar both imply that Arizona, and by extension the rest of the Legion's territory is very much the same way. Pockets of civilization surrounded by a majority population of tribalistic nomads.
Thus to my mind, the Legion has effectively pulled a more rape-y katamari damacy on the entirety of the societies within the comparatively barren Four-Corners Wasteland and in that way their claims are both legitimate whilst also the Legion itself still maintains its role as a purely nomadic army that takes its entire rolling momentum wherever it goes. As Dale Barton shows, pockets of subservient civilization exist within these territories but they are minimal and were always the absolute minority compared to the majority tribal population (which is now absorbed entirely into the Legion) of the Four Corner states. Which is why the Mojave and the West are so critical/important to the Legion: Not only will it represent a fundamental change in the structure of the Legion, but the vastly more civilized and connected lands of the Mojave and California will force the Legion to adopt entirely new methodss and ways of running their territory/claims. Arizona is likely a crucible of Legion millitary power/control and likely has numerous camps/war-settlements feeding into the Mojave, but Legion territorial claim is all about the power and influence rather than literal borders, trade routes and stationed garrisons as with the NCR.
I can see that. It also lends credence to telling Lanius that adding the Mojave to Legion territory will spread them thin.