DirtyOldShoe
Some kind of lucky
I can rest easy now. Thank you.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Sovereignty is shooting the son of a bitch who tries to tell you what to do before he shoots you for not doing it.
I'm Pro-Rivet City and a govenrment of the people rather than two high-tech bands of tribal raiders who think their bigger guns gives them a right to rule over the region. Since they DO, it's better to just kill as many of them as possible so they can't do it anymore. It's my strategy for dealing with Raiders and Super Mutants.
Well, without the BoS and Enclave then Rivet City can run the Purifer. Alas, you can't recruit a militia like the Minutemen.
Yeah, I wanted to show her Virgil's experiments.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
The lack of choice to join the Enclave is a big flaw in Fallout 3 despite the fact I gladly would hunt them to the ends of the Earth to put an end to their heinous idealogy.
You don't need to see the children to know the place the Enclave has been living 200 years has children.
:-p
There's children in both the Institute and on the Prydwen.
Well, it represents the state of Massachusetts, that's a bit more than 5 feet.
Yeah, the BOS is a brutal bunch of imperialists. I mentioned this and linked you to an essay where I explain that to those who say the BOS are all good in F3.
God I miss middle school.Sovereignty is shooting the son of a bitch who tries to tell you what to do before he shoots you for not doing it.
So a small city state of a couple people just barely scraping by? It's not hard to have a basic representative government when you have like 20 people in your decrepit half of a ship town.
>Enclave
>Brotherhood of Steel
>tribal raiders
Right. Two of the most powerful organizations in the Capital Wasteland with armies and structured hierarchies are clearly just some dumb tribals.
We're still going on the pretense that this is a realistic world and not bethesda's retarded world so no, you can't just answer everything with "LOL I'LL JUST SHOOT EVERYONE I DONT LIKE xD"
Then again you are the same person who thinks this...
http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/why-mothership-zeta-is-awesome.207349/page-3#post-4185513
Rivet City barely has enough security to guard the town. How are they going to fully guard the purifier and make caravan runs all across the Capital Wasteland all while having shitty basic armaments like combat armour and 10mm sub-machine guns besides Harkness? They don't have the manpower, supplies or infrastructure for that.
Ah yes, what Fallout 3 really needed was "ANOTHER SETTLEMENT NEEDS YOUR HELP!" spam. Again, why go through the trouble of forming a whole entire new faction just to do what the Brotherhood or Enclave are more than capable of doing already RIGHT NOW?
I'm gonna fucking vomit.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
It probably reaches our problem point in that I'm not a big fan of empires in Fallout and all for breaking up NCR and Caesar's New Rome. Break them down into much smaller city-states with no chance of being able to expand or dominate their surroundings.
At the very least, NCR's size and power lend itself the belief it can and should dominate smaller states.
You do understand you're asking for the permanent stagnation of the entire human race right? Imagine the world today if everyone just stayed in their tiny small little tribal towns and never innovated and expanded? Imagine the world without just the Roman Empire? The Greeks? The Sumerians? The basis for what we have today is destroyed with this type of "lol just sit in your own filth forever, no expansion or improvement" thinking?
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Given the circumstances of the Fallout universe, the simple fact is sustainability is a serious issue and Empire building is just going to result in more wars and conflicts which will probably result in humanity's extinction. A smaller, "bottom up" than "top down" government system is a superior one in my opinion as it lends itself to more smaller self-sufficient communities than trying to go immediately back to a Pre-War urbanized environment that just isn't possible right now.
The biggest arguement for Caesar's Legion is that it's a sustainable Empire which goes low-tech in easily maintainable infrastructure versus NCR which depends a large part on non-reknewable Pre-War technology. But Caesar's Legion does represent the same threat NCR is, which is the destruction of local emerging culture and suppression of freedom to promote the new empires developing. Keeping them weak or broken up helps maintain local culture and tradition.
They can join together voluntarily but NCR was built on things like taking over Vault City via force.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
Ouchies, you just proved you don't know the Enclave's lore very well. The Enclave hasn't been there for 200 years. They migrated there after their base was destroyed in Fallout 2 (which occurred in 2241), and most likely landed in DC around this time. Fallout 3 takes place in 2277, so it's only a 30 year gap. There could be children but at this point all the adults we see may be children who grew up on the base. Either way 30 does not = 200 unless you're a Scientologi
That's lovely but what does this have to do with the writing being lazy? The fact that the Institute and Prydwen have children on them, both of which you can blow up, just disproves your point. The Enclave Base would have children if there were meant to be children because clearly Bethesda doesn't give a fuck if you blow up a bunch of kids. So therefore all you're doing is proving that them leaving out kids of the Enclave Base was intentional, because there aren't any there. Thus there are no "muh innocent women and children" being nuked when you blow up their base.
Yes, that's exactly right. Fallout 4 DOES represent the entire state of Massachusetts. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY EVERYTHING SHOULDN'T BE SO FUCKING CLOSE TOGETHER. There is NO reason at all for there to be Super Mutant bases 2 inches away from a settlement that's supposed to turn into this "thriving community". Hell, there's no reason the place Hancock owns should exist considering the fact it's completely surrounded by Mutants and Raiders on all sides, with the only thing protecting it being a flimsy wooden fence and some car pileage. Half of Fallout 4's map is covered in water with nothing in it. If they had simply removed a lot of the water and spaced out the locations a bit, the world would be a lot more believeable like you seem to think it is. As it is currently, the game makes no sense and all the settlements should be devoid of any life instead of usually being occupied by 3 to 5 people. In fact most in-game settlements make no sense. The only one that does even slightly is Diamond City and that's just because they have their own farming land, giant walls surrounding them, and a water supply.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
Yeah, holding two conversations at a time (three actually) hurts my writing coherence. Still, the genocide of the Enclave is a dark and terrible end to the story and I did not like it one bit.
What do you think my point is?
So your argument is there's no children in Raven's Rock and that all of the Enclave are adults.
Not to blow your mind or anything but wouldn't the reason Raider bases exist near settlements be because....they're preying on the locals and want to be near them? Raiders aren't orcs. They're not a culture. They're bandits. They probably have drinks at the local bars in-between murdering people.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
My argument is the fact that Bethesda clearly has no problem with you nuking little boys and girls. Megaton has kids in it, the Institoot has kids in it, and the Prydwen has kids in it. So therefore if they have no problems with this, why wouldn't they put any in the Enclave bases? It's very simple, they want the Enclave to look like the ultimate bad guys so you feel no remorse for slaughtering them. No innocent women, no innocent children, just evil dudes in "badass" power armor with guns trying to blow you up, typical Bethesda style. Because Bethesda is lazy at writing. They could have had some innocents scattered throughout the base that might actually make you consider nuking the Citadel instead. Imagine if there was like a daycare or something in the Enclave base and you got to see their more human side, that might actually give someone motivation not to blow it all up. As it is, it's just lazy writing with the Citadel explosion tacked on so you can get some "lul evil karma xddd".
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
It's personally my biggest complaint about Fallout 4 since the game doesn't allow you to avoid killing kids and my roleplay wouldn't have involvement in any plan which involves murdering them. It's a stupid bit of writing, IMHO.
At least in F3 you only blow up the Mobile Carrier and it can be JHE who nukes everything.
Ragemage
Wept for Zion
You act like Fallout 4 has ANY RPG elements to begin with. Fun fact, it does not. My favorite example is that one Institute mission where you have to take seeds to a synth disguised as a farmer. Even though you're FORCED to work for the Institute if you side with the Railroad or BOS as a spy for them, this mission only has 1 way of completing it. Even if you're a spy for the enemy you can't shut down this synth farmer even when he's found out by a farmhand. You can literally only side with the Institute and tell the farmhand to stand down/kill the farmhand with no way to expose the farmer for the synth he is then try to get him help (Railroad) or destroy him (BOS). Literally all being a spy in the Institute does is make it so you don't need to replay the game to see the entirety of the Institute's questline. You can do it all while being a spy and then betray your former allies and finish as the Institute. It's ridiculous and just removes replay value from the game completely, with what little there was to begin with.
Uh, no. Things like the NCR and the Legion cropping up just proves the opposite. Sustainability isn't becoming as much of an issue and civilization can prosper. This initial stage of Empire building is necessary for the growth and further improvement of the newly formed civilization. War between two big civilized nations where one will absorb the other and grow is far less likely to cause extinction than staying in your huts with 12 other people and hope that when the raving bands of marauders they use the spit when they fuck you to death and take everything you own. The Legion for example has virtually no raiders, why? Because it's a civilization with infrastructure and stability and sustainability. Empires don't form UNTIL sustainability is met.
Which is fine for when they are smaller communities but when they grow your direct libertarian-esque democracies and anarco-whatever societies stop being feasible when you have 200 people instead of 20.
None of them did that! Shady Sands started as just a small little village and then grew into the NCR. They didn't just go "ok here we go we're just gonna start building roads and shit despite not having the population or resources for it". They grew and grew and their mortality rate got better, they had more people, more food, more necessary resources and over time they grew into the NCR. That NCR btw, who had the ability to mint it's own currency, build roads and buildings, have vehicles etc. It's pretty goddamn capable of urbanization.
Yes, the Legion isn't just "lol no tech cause we wuz romans n shiet" btw. It just doesn't like using tech that isn't renewable like you said. The high echelons in Legion society all have power fists, displacer gloves and Thermic lances and shit. I'm sure you probably know this (no im not) but I thought I'd just point that out to make sure because it's a common misconception that the Legion are just retarded luddites for no reason.
Not all cultures are worth saving.
"Suppression of freedoms" doesn't really matter to people who can't even get basic drinking water. It's not a bad tradeoff to have to follow some rules if it means you get a reliable supply of food, shelter, water and the ability to not fear mutants and raiders waiting to stab you in the back constantly. This is basically a dawn of civilization type scenario afterall.
Also what kind of retards would just sit back and say "nah we're not gonna get these resources. Let's just sit back and watch competition before our very eyes!". Not really going to knock a growing Empire for expanding into territory that will be beneficial for it and it's people in a post apocalyptic wasteland because a couple of people who can't even read or write already live there on they off chance they might grow into something worthwhile when you and your already advanced people can use them now.
What? He DID destroy those cultures and it's good he did. They were stronger together than a bunch of weak bands of tribals constantly fighting eachother for what small scraps they had. Not all cultures are equal sorry to say.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
My opinion of Fallout 4 is that it did a massive amount of copying and pasting responses as well as leaving almost no variable paths. My opinion is there's not even a choice between four factions since there's really only a choice between For the Institute and Against the Institute.
Which is barely a choice at all.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
CT Phipps, say something stupid I can refute. I don't feel like enroaching other people's response turf.
Don't worry, theres a lot to go around.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
I'm not surprised.Don't worry, theres a lot to go around.
CT Phipps
Carbon Dated and Proud
In fact, sustainability is already a major problem for NCR as they're going to run out of food in a generation thanks to overpopulation. It's the reason why they're scientists are seeking an answer in the Vault-experiments being conducted in the Mojave. As for the "war is far less likely" issue, that's not necessarily the case with so much nuclear weaponry. As while a village may go extinct, the simple fact the diffuse nature of humanity means that such conflicts are likely to be local.
The Legion is a gang of Raiders. It's just they conquer, annex, and tax versus simply rob.
I favor the city-state model and interwebs of commerce as my favorite method of government for the Wasteland. Yes, it's possible they'll eventually merge into singular democratic institutions or even authoritarian ones but a weak centralized state seems preferable versus a strong one.
And they've overextended to the point they do not have the water (hence importing it to the California Wasteland from Hoover Dam), electricity, and the oncoming issue of food. There's also the major security concerns from being unable to mount a decent defense against the Legion. NCR needs to remain small until it grows unto itself and hopefully by then the Mojave will be strong enough to resist annexation.
Whether it's a conscious decision on Caesar's part or a necessity of adjusting tribals, the Legion is better adapted than NCR to the post-apocalypse world. That adaption is not sufficient justification for its existence, mind you, but simply a statement of fact.
Oh, agreed.
Why I blew up the BoS bunker.
The Hierarchy of Needs is certainly a consideration but the people should be served by the state rather than the state existing to perpetuate itself. The Great Khans are kind of scumbags, I'll be the first to admit it, but their annexation by the Legion improves nothing but the Legion.
Killing Empire builders is a very good strategy for keeping yourself from ending up on the cross or enslaved. It's like Isaac Asimov said to a friend who asked him, "Wouldn't you like to live in the days of Kings and Queens?" "No, because I'd be the one shoveling crap in their castle stalls."
It certainly didn't increase the net happiness of the women folk or those enslaved by the system. The nature of empires is they function perfectly well for the elite or centralized government which benefits from those they parasite from--which is what NCR is doing in the Mojave.
It's a massive land grab for their own citizens with settlements being propped up so they can build. They may bring a few benefits but the simple fact is they're there to seize territory.
Caesar, to his credit, never states otherwise.
Dr Fallout
Centurion
Not going to mention that the definition of a raider is extremely broad and covers the NCR, if they attack the Legion in their territory.