My review of Fallout 3

[mithrap]

Hey, nice to meet you @Ragemage.

It's wonderful to talk with you after so much has been said about you. It's also about one of my favorite topics re: Fallout 3 and I agree it would be interesting to also discuss Shamus' opinion. Even so, I'm happy to bring up one of my favorite arguments which I've discussed several times. I call it, "Enclave Apologia Bullshit."

Hehe. Just kidding, it's Enclave Apologia but I do feel that it's an attempt to reframe the argument of Fallout 3's plot in a manner which tries to make the actions of the Enclave more palatable in order to make it a more Gray and Gray Morality conflict. In fact, Colonel Autumn's actions simultaneously make perfect sense while also remaining entirely contemptible.

Colonel Autumn wishes to use the Purifer as a tool to dominate the region and control the surrounding populace. Even though he doesn't want to annihilate the "mutant" population, I see no reason why they shouldn't be stopped with extreme prejudice. Historically, invading armies aren't welcomed with roses and smiles.

The independence of the Capital Wasteland's communities are a perfectly valid and justifiable reason to wage war against the Enclave. As we see in Random Encounters with the Enclave, they're capable of massacring the survivors of Vault 101, setting up posts to arrest Wastelanders, and generally attempting to establish their dominance. The fact it doesn't require genocide leaves plenty of fascist brutality in the process. Even if not, they have no title to dominance over the local settlements and they have every right to resist.

The United States is dead and even if it wasn't, they are not part of it.

There's also the protection of a valuable resource which belongs to the people of Rivet City. James and Madison Li are the creators of Project: Purity, which is meant for the people of the Capital Wasteland rather than to help enforce the claims of the Enclave. Much like those slime in NCR attempting to seize Hoover Dam, Mister House and the Rivet City folk have every right to protect it from the hands of Raiders (high tech or otherwise) like the Enclave.

Why does Autumn shoot you? Why not? What value are you to him? In the end, you are the son or daughter of a person who attempted to keep the Enclave from their goal of ransoming water and extorting it to the populace. Why did James fight so hard to keep the Enclave from his work? Because it's a group of conquerors who will use his dream to grow stronger.

A loose end.

Which is why you have to blow up Raven's Rock and Adam's Air Force Base. You can't let a single man, woman, or child escape.





I roll my eyes and hate the idea of 10 out of 10 as a "perfect" score. It implies there's some kind of Platonic ideal game which is such bullshit. 10 out of 10 should represent a scale of 1 being a game you absolutely hated and 10 being a game which you absolutely loved. You don't start at 10 and then substract for flaws because you can have a flawless game which is less enjoyable than a flawed game which is utterly awesome.

Portal is an utterly flawless game but it's not more enjoyable than Skyrim.

Dominance by a foreign invader is not, de facto, always a bad thing. Considering how uncivilized, undevelopped and how brutal the wastelanders are, the presence of a militaristic, technological faction could improve everyone's life, in time. There are countless examples in history of tribal lands getting occupied by a militaristic, technological superior power. And despite the resistance, these people always see their life expectancy go boom, their access to public services made easier, the litteracy level going on steroids etc. Is that moral ? Ask the guy who was hungry, and who has now access to public rations. And in any case, I can't see any scenario in which the Capital Wasteland could get worse. For all we know, the Enclave could even accept Rivet City's right to govern itself, like the romans did with the loyalist kings for example.

In 200 years, the capital wasteland couldn't get its shit together. At this point, they are begging for a foreign invador to come and teach them how to make a fire. Their independence has only led to 200 years of war, poverty, pollution, hunger and a social gap which would make the Byzantines breathe heavily. In other words, their independence doesn't benefit anyone. Nobody would ever fight for it, except, ironically, the foreign invador that is the brotherhood of steel.
Also, the Enclave is hardly a foreign force, unlike the BoS. They are the embodiment of pre-war America, and since the bombs fell, the only political power holding Washington has been a pack of retarded super mutants. By any means, the Enclave has every right to claim Washington as their own if they can liberate it. Which they could, considering their technological advancements.

I would have helped Autumn any day, because he has no responsibility in the death of James, his intentions are peaceful and he actually has the means to enhance everyone's quality of life, since he has the Enclave's toys. How can I know if the Enclave's civilians are not in desperate need of water ? For all I know, by destroying their soldiers, maybe I'm condemning thousands of innocents to die of thirst, far away (hence, the absence of children in their base. Their civilians are somewhere else). My character doesn't know, and the thing is, he/she doesn't care, now matter how you roleplay it. Not being able to question the Enclave's motives forces you to be the ruthless guy who can't conceptualize for a second that there are people out there, away from the Capital Wasteland, whose lives matter too, even if you'll never meet them. The lack of empathy is forced upon you right at the start, when you are forced to kill the vault security, who, for all you know, have 95% chance of being innocent, law abiding citizen.

 

[mithrap]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the Legion won't actually collapse unless the player kills all their leadership and roundly trounces them. If Caesar dies, Lanius takes over. If Lanius dies, Caesar chooses someone else. If both Lanius and Caesar dies, Lucius could argue his own leadership as the bodyguard of Caesar and head of his guards (ironically, the Praetorian guard killed an emperor and then crowned one of their own as ruler).

Probably won't collapse, but it will change. The way I see it, Lucius, Lanius and Vulpes are post-apocalyptic adaptations of the three most famous figures after Caesar's death : Brutus, Marc Antonius and Octavian.
A logical sequel would see the Legion in civil war, led by the three generals. If you follow Lucius, the Legion will become a Republic and will eventually sign a truce, maybe even an alliance with the NCR. If you follow Vulpes, the Legion will turn into an actual Empire which will improve its internal structure rather than going on endless conquests. If you follow Lanius, the Legion will take the path of a horde, ravaging everything in its way, and expanding to the west.
Whatever happens, the Legion will stay alive. But it will change.

 

[Dr Fallout]

the Legion will become a Republic

Why?

 

[CT Phipps]

Dominance by a foreign invader is not, de facto, always a bad thing. Considering how uncivilized, undevelopped and how brutal the wastelanders are, the presence of a militaristic, technological faction could improve everyone's life, in time. There are countless examples in history of tribal lands getting occupied by a militaristic, technological superior power. And despite the resistance, these people always see their life expectancy go boom, their access to public services made easier, the literacy level going on steroids etc. Is that moral ? Ask the guy who was hungry, and who has now access to public rations. And in any case, I can't see any scenario in which the Capital Wasteland could get worse. For all we know, the Enclave could even accept Rivet City's right to govern itself, like the romans did with the loyalist kings for example.

That's essentially the argument which is presented in The Witcher 3 where the game goes to GREAT LENGTHS to portray Nilfgaard and its invasion in a positive light. They highlight the fact the Northern Kings aren't good people and the relative wealth as well as prosperity which the average Nilfgaardian lives under. The Nilfgaardians also practice religious and racial tolerance versus the pogroms which you can potentially have experienced during the 2nd game.

This all leads up to the choice of whether or not you want to help Ciri, your adopted daughter, assume the throne as Empress of Nilfgaard. This is considered to be "best" ending by some since Ciri is a commoner-loving and enlightened monarch who also will benefit from the fact Temeria (the home kingdom of the games the way Stormwind is in WOW) by becoming a member of Nilfgaard versus its other options.

This is actually also a kind of hilarious bit of whitewashing because Sapkowski based the Nilfgaardians on the NAZIS. Well, the Nazis and Ancient Rome with the fact the Nilfgaardians practice slavery brought up approximately once in side-dialogue as I expect the developers had a massive hard on for the Black Empire that they didn't want to have gamers consider them "villains."

Even so, I had Geralt side with the resistance despite his much vaunted neutrality.

In 200 years, the capital wasteland couldn't get its shit together. At this point, they are begging for a foreign invader to come and teach them how to make a fire. Their independence has only led to 200 years of war, poverty, pollution, hunger and a social gap which would make the Byzantines breathe heavily. In other words, their independence doesn't benefit anyone. Nobody would ever fight for it, except, ironically, the foreign invador that is the brotherhood of steel.

The establishment of Rivet City happened in what I believe is the last thirty years, maybe the last fifty at the most. James is also someone who is planning to create the Purifer and create a lasting environmental change for the region. The Enclave may have the opinion the Wastelanders are all stupid assholes who have no technological development but THEY didn't build the Purifier. There's also no sign the Enclave intends to establish a more equitable social model either since they capture, torture, and brutalize the one citizen in Megaton who actually believes in them.

Also, the Enclave is hardly a foreign force, unlike the BoS. They are the embodiment of pre-war America, and since the bombs fell, the only political power holding Washington has been a pack of retarded super mutants. By any means, the Enclave has every right to claim Washington as their own if they can liberate it. Which they could, considering their technological advancements.

The Enclave is about as relevant to the lives of Capital Wastelanders as the Klan is in my region, still touting the Confederate cause a century later. The problem with the idea of claiming Washington D.C. for themselves is it's ALREADY INHABITED and they attempt to steal it from the BOS and Rivet Citiers.

I would have helped Autumn any day, because he has no responsibility in the death of James, his intentions are peaceful and he actually has the means to enhance everyone's quality of life, since he has the Enclave's toys.

He's a thief, which isn't the most egregious sin but the simple fact is he had nothing to do with the Purifier and seizes it by force.

How can I know if the Enclave's civilians are not in desperate need of water ? For all I know, by destroying their soldiers, maybe I'm condemning thousands of innocents to die of thirst, far away.

Oh, you absolutely do unless Liberty Prime destroys Ravens Rock instead. The Enclave is killed via a genocide which I feel incredibly uncomfortable with and would have loved to have seen a follow-up to.

So, I agree it's awful.

Even if I totally am onboard killing the Flag-Waving Tribals.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Oh, you absolutely do unless Liberty Prime destroys Ravens Rock instead. The Enclave is killed via a genocide which I feel incredibly uncomfortable with and would have loved to have seen a follow-up to.

'the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.'
Is the player any better?

 

[CT Phipps]

'the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group.'
Is the player any better?

I just said the player character commits a genocide or, albets it, since John Henry Eden pushes the button.

I totally think that was awful.

Much like the destruction of the Institute or the destruction of the Kil'rathi homeworld.

 

[mithrap]

Why?

To offer a contrast and a radical third option, compared to the Empire and the horde. Which would make sense in the context of a RPG. Also, I can't help but thinking that Lucius was written as a modern Brutus, whose opinions on Caesar would have been expanded during the "Et tumor" quest. It's just an opinion based on nothing, but I feel like the character was supposed to be this third option for the future of the legion. We know that a lot of Legion's content didn't make it to the final cut, so...

That's essentially the argument which is presented in The Witcher 3 where the game goes to GREAT LENGTHS to portray Nilfgaard and its invasion in a positive light. They highlight the fact the Northern Kings aren't good people and the relative wealth as well as prosperity which the average Nilfgaardian lives under. The Nilfgaardians also practice religious and racial tolerance versus the pogroms which you can potentially have experienced during the 2nd game.
This all leads up to the choice of whether or not you want to help Ciri, your adopted daughter, assume the throne as Empress of Nilfgaard. This is considered to be "best" ending by some since Ciri is a commoner-loving and enlightened monarch who also will benefit from the fact Temeria (the home kingdom of the games the way Stormwind is in WOW) by becoming a member of Nilfgaard versus its other options.
This is actually also a kind of hilarious bit of whitewashing because Sapkowski based the Nilfgaardians on the NAZIS. Well, the Nazis and Ancient Rome with the fact the Nilfgaardians practice slavery brought up approximately once in side-dialogue as I expect the developers had a massive hard on for the Black Empire that they didn't want to have gamers consider them "villains."

Witcher 3 did a solid job at presenting the factions to the player. You can totally support Nilfgaard during a "positive karma" roleplay, so to speak. Because nations are more complex than "good versus bad". That's something that Bethesda always had trouble showing, even in the elder scrolls. The Stormcloak/Empire dilemma is pretty good in that regard, but in the end, the Thalmor is always at the Mufti Husseini level of evil, no matter the situation.
Wasn't Nilfgaard inspired mainly by the holy roman empire though ? Always thought they were inspired by the states of the current Poland, but I don't know a thing about the Witcher's author. I should read the books, really.
As for the nazis inspiration, sure. But that doesn't mean that the Nilfgaardians you encounter have to be mindless barbarians. It just means that their officers/emperor push an ideology through conquest. In this case, an ideology of absolute order, of control over the minorities (elves, vassal states and mages) and of slavery. I'll agree that the slavery part is hard to see in the game though. But it kind of makes sense, considering that the action doesn't takes place in Nilfgaard. People in Temeria may simply don't know, like people didn't know about the fate of the jewish people who were taken away. If anything, they have a problem with the problems of war (food and shelter, mostly) rather than with Nilfgaard itself. Exactly like Europe with the nazi ideology. Hell, the UK supported the nazis until very, very late. Same for the US, actually.

That's not Berlin, that's New York, october 1939... While in Europe, Hitler had conquered Poland and France, and jewish people were already forced to wear the yellow star. You get my point.

The establishment of Rivet City happened in what I believe is the last thirty years, maybe the last fifty at the most. James is also someone who is planning to create the Purifer and create a lasting environmental change for the region. The Enclave may have the opinion the Wastelanders are all stupid assholes who have no technological development but THEY didn't build the Purifier. There's also no sign the Enclave intends to establish a more equitable social model either since they capture, torture, and brutalize the one citizen in Megaton who actually believes in them.

There's no sign, because the game doesn't give them a single chance to make one. Maybe they care about the wastelanders and also want a lasting change. Let's not forget that Autumn defies his superiors because of their genocidal intents towards the capital wasteland.
What's the Enclave going to do with the purifier, other than to activate it ? What if they succeed ? They'd create an actual, lasting environmental change. And Autumn's behaviour suggests that the safety of civilians actually matters to him.
I would roll with the Enclave actually being absolute assholes. What I don't roll with, is fighting them for no other reason than ignorance. For all my character knows, they are... guys who want to finish daddy's work, for unknown reasons and motivations. That's not enough to fight them, unless the hero has no empathy and interest in the play of power happening in front of him.

The Enclave is about as relevant to the lives of Capital Wastelanders as the Klan is in my region, still touting the Confederate cause a century later. The problem with the idea of claiming Washington D.C. for themselves is it's ALREADY INHABITED and they attempt to steal it from the BOS and Rivet Citiers.

From the BOS, exactly. The Brotherhood, which is a foreign invador who stole military technologies belonging to the Enclave, and brought a civil war into a land already plagued by the super mutants. And the only benefits they brought was the protection of a DJ, for all the years they spent occupying the land. It's not that unreasonable from the Enclave to see them as hostiles, especially considering that the brotherhood actually exterminated them a few years ago, and stole their technologies.
As for Rivet City, I don't think that they actually have an opinion on the Enclave, do they ? For all we know, they seem to be neutral towards them, and a local support is actually possible, considering that the Enclave radio is active within RC.

He's a thief, which isn't the most egregious sin but the simple fact is he had nothing to do with the Purifier and seizes it by force.

But even then, why not cooperate ? The Enclave -wants- James to succeed. Sure, they want to claim all the glory, but when it comes to produce unlimited, free clean water... do their motivations truly matter ? The result is what James always expected, minus the glory.
Remember revelation 21:6, and the "freely", in it. Free from glory and ego, too. If James lived by his own standards, he would have agreed to stand down and let the Enclave accomplish his life goal. Letting a thief claim glory for the sake of a greater, absolute cause, is the perfect example of ultimate humility in action. Kind of the morale Fallout 3 tried to make, no? Give freely. Don't ask for money, glory or gratitude. It doesn't matter who gets thanked, what matters is to give everything.

Oh, you absolutely do unless Liberty Prime destroys Ravens Rock instead. The Enclave is killed via a genocide which I feel incredibly uncomfortable with and would have loved to have seen a follow-up to.

Agreed. The lack of empathy of the hero is something that I find truly disturbing. Same reason why it really shocked me that you cannot ask Cait about the world outside the US, considering that she actually lived there. Doesn't the hero care even a little bit about the billions of people outside his country ? It's really disturbing to play someone who cannot conceptualize the value of human life, as soon as the said life is not in front of him.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I just said the player character commits a genocide or, albets it, since John Henry Eden pushes the button.

I totally think that was awful.

Much like the destruction of the Institute or the destruction of the Kil'rathi homeworld.

Either commit genocide against one group or commit genocide against another. What a difficult and complex choice!

 

[CT Phipps]

Either commit genocide against one group or commit genocide against another. What a difficult and complex choice!

Yeah, bullshit.

Then again, video games seem allergic to the idea of groups surrendering versus being killed to the last.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Yeah, bullshit.

Then again, video games seem allergic to the idea of groups surrendering versus being killed to the last.

Fallout New Vegas is the exception.

 

[CT Phipps]

Fallout New Vegas is the exception.

Yep.

But yes, it is why I hope Fallout: New Orleans is real because as much as I loved Fallout 3. I don't dispute the fact New Vegas was the superior game with superior politics and worldbuilding.

 

[mithrap]

Either commit genocide against one group or commit genocide against another. What a difficult and complex choice!

That would have been okay if they took the path of Killzone. The extermination of the "bad guys" is acknowledged as a horrible genocide in this title, which is supposed to be a mindless fun kind of game. Yet, it beats Fallout 3 and 4 on its own ground, by showing directly to the player the consequences of believing in an ideology, and the danger of convincing yourself that you are the good guy.

 

[CT Phipps]

That would have been okay if they took the path of Killzone. The extermination of the "bad guys" is acknowledged as a horrible genocide in this title, which is supposed to be a mindless fun kind of game. Yet, it beats Fallout 3 and 4 on its own ground, by showing directly to the player the consequences of believing in an ideology, and the danger of convincing yourself that you are the good guy.

Oh yeah. I also like how the result of the heroes is to resettle the survivors of the war on their own homeworld, even though they were a bunch of Mordor Soviet Nazis.

 

[Risewild]

The establishment of Rivet City happened in what I believe is the last thirty years, maybe the last fifty at the most.

You're pretty much spot on there. Rivet City started as the Rivet Station Science Outpost in 2237 and became Rivet City on April 25th 2239. So it's been 40 years .

The Enclave is about as relevant to the lives of Capital Wastelanders as the Klan is in my region, still touting the Confederate cause a century later. The problem with the idea of claiming Washington D.C. for themselves is it's ALREADY INHABITED and they attempt to steal it from the BOS and Rivet Citiers.

He's a thief, which isn't the most egregious sin but the simple fact is he had nothing to do with the Purifier and seizes it by force.

Autumn actually believes he is saving the wasteland and that he can help the wastelanders much more than the BoS. He wants the purifier to help the wastelanders, that is why he has a mutiny happening to stop Eden from deploying the altered FEV into the purifier. Under his leadership and with the Enclave resources I have no doubt that the wasteland would become a much better place than under the BoS. We also know he would resort to destroy Eden to make sure Eden wouldn't destroy the wastelanders (he says so in his tape with the ZAX destruct codes).

The American people are worth fighting for. The future must be secured. I won't let you stand in the way of that... Once you're dead, we'll finish off this pathetic Brotherhood and become the true saviors of the Wasteland.

When you see the Enclave, you see the United States Government. We are authorized to restore order and civility, by any means necessary.

You know why. We can't start the purifier without it. The longer the purifier isn't running, the more people suffer.

Once this facility is operational, the masses will flock to the Enclave for fresh water, protection, and a plan for the future.

The American people are worth fighting for. The future must be secured. I won't let you stand in the way of that.

 

[Deleted member 93956]

Some of the other settlements nearby?

Come on in! We have virtually endless room, food and water! The only little itch is that you have to submit to our master, Nate to get in. He might kill you if he's bored and probably send you unarmed to the other side of the map! Isn't it great? Come, we don't bite! Oh and by the way we all came following the signal despite we have no discernible radio systems. So we are probably synths ^^

In Fallout 3? It hurts to say it, but it would be a bit more realistic as every settlement is fucked (unless you do all quests for them of course). If the settlers had two grams of brain matter they shouldn't let random strangers join them, especially with supply shortage.

 

[CT Phipps]

Come on in! We have virtually endless room, food and water! The only little itch is that you have to submit to our master, Nate to get in. He might kill you if he's bored and probably send you unarmed to the other side of the map! Isn't it great? Come, we don't bite! Oh and by the way we all came following the signal despite we have no discernible radio systems. So we are probably synths ^^

In Fallout 3? It hurts to say it, but it would be a bit more realistic as every settlement is fucked (unless you do all quests for them of course). If the settlers had two grams of brain matter they shouldn't let random strangers join them, especially with supply shortage.

Mind you, I do think Fallout 3 could have been improved. There's a lot of places they could have made lore to find for the past 200 years which I think would have benefited the place tremendously.

* What the Enclave has been up to
* Make Evergreen Mills a non-hostile Raider location to visit
* The Regulators
* Talon Company
* Actually have some sort of explanation for Little Lamplight which makes sense or cut it

 

[Dr Fallout]

* Actually have some sort of explanation for Little Lamplight which makes sense or cut it

 

[CT Phipps]

I originally thought they were just mutants.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I originally thought they were just mutants.

 

[CT Phipps]

View attachment 6176

Then I thought the Super Mutants were protecting them to harvest them later!