Hamenaglar
It Wandered In From the Wastes
In Commandos: Beyond the call of duty AI could climb up and down the ladders. True it wasn't an open-world rpg/fps mish- mash.
Why there are no ladders in Bethesda/Gamebryo games
- Thread starter Brother None
- Start date
It Wandered In From the Wastes
AskWazzup
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqziUJkbOMQ[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPkLC4J6Kn8&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6_R96w3qK8[/youtube]
Don't remember about ladders in this one, but your foes could certainly overcome obsticles, like jumping from one ledge, to another.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-aiR2U9y6U[/youtube]
There were some crazy moments, but in general it worked decently.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPkLC4J6Kn8&feature=related[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6_R96w3qK8[/youtube]
Don't remember about ladders in this one, but your foes could certainly overcome obsticles, like jumping from one ledge, to another.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-aiR2U9y6U[/youtube]
There were some crazy moments, but in general it worked decently.
those bots just followed a set of waypoints, hardly an AI.Beelzebud said:
considering beth adapted their engine as much as they did, i doubt its was laziness.
HL2 animation were better, but could it allow 200 of armor/weapon/etc sets to be worn beside the ~15 premade models they had or were you to lazy to think about that?
EDIT: @AskWazzup, yes what a great example of AI in mount and blade especially around 3:30 where they keep running into the wall...
tekhedd
Hoarding ammo IS gameplay
verevoof said:
"Hey, the box is there for a reason. I like thinking inside of it. I feel safe in there." --Tucker
Honestly, I never noticed the absence of ladders in any of these games. This is what you call a "good design decision" because they don't have to waste any time making it work, and it makes no difference whatsoever in an RPG game...
Wait, did I say an RPG game? Hmm.
Alpha Protocol is being used a lot as an example of a game with ladders, and I have to ask: Did no one else have a ton of problems getting stuck on freaking ladders in that game? And while we're on the topic of AI, the less said about AP the better. Anyways, FO3 played just fine without ladders, good on them.
maximaz
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
cogar66 said:
Indeed. I didn't even notice the absence of ladders at all. This is not a big deal. Bethesda can't do a lot of things that are much more important than ladders.
frosty_theaussie
Still Mildly Glowing
cogar66 said:
For me, it isn't the fact that ladders are climbable or not, but that the lack of them is another symptom of Bethesda continuing to cling to their shoddy implementation of the GameByro engine. It's 2010, time to ditch using activators for area transitions.
Cimmerian Nights
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
Right, unclimbable ladders in and of themselves are pretty insignificant, but it's indicative of a larger trend of half-assed, half-baked, half-thought-out implementation. Ladders you can't climb, groins you can't kick, NPCs you can't kill, cars you can't drive...
Yet there's plenty of time and resources to allocate towards DLC.
Yet there's plenty of time and resources to allocate towards DLC.
I don't get it, how is using ladders as an area transition any different from a two-dimensional game, or on with no voice acting? They are all consequences of the older style of development, but that doesn't mean that they are bad, right? Or... does it? ....frosty_theaussie said:
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
Cimmerian Nights said:
^^^^^
this.
exactly this.
nothing to really add but to emphasize this.
and yet FO3 still got GOTY from lots of places.
Maybe because the reviewers thought that it was a good game. Maybe because they didn't care about no ladders or a "half assed effort", as it is put. Maybe they could overlook the flaws of the game, and see it as a good game. Every game has flaws, and if ladders in the game are really gonna be used as evidence that the game is bad, then I don't know what to say.TheWesDude said:
whirlingdervish
Brahmin Cavalry Commander
Crni Vuk said:
ETQW
The bots for ETQW are actually smarter and tougher to beat than most of the vanilla pub players, they can climb ladders, trick jump and pathfind on huge detailed maps with various paths to the objective without the use of route files. I've never seen one get stuck in a wall or have any major pathfinding problems that they didn't immediately remedy and I've clocked 200 hours of play.
They can complete the objectives and play as a team with as many as 20+ bots on the same server at the same time, and this game works fine on consoles and displays huge gorgeous maps.
The bots are even capable of flying aircraft around a map with mountainous terrain and trees and such without crashing, which is something you would never see from the kind of "AI" in F03 where they run into every damn thing in their way and get stuck on a regular basis while on foot, in maps that dont have major elevation changes.
This AI for ETQW was made by the relatively tiny developer Splash Damage with nowhere near the budget that was used for FO3.
There is no excuse for how stupid and one dimensional the AI in F03 turned out to be, other than the developers being incompetent and lazy, and people praising and paying for games like Oblivion to reinforce that sort of behavior.
After all their bullshit about 4-pixel chairs and immersion, they made yet another game where your companions rollerskate into walls constantly and which doesn't contain a single climbable ladder.
btw how good is it? i loved ET and always wanted to try ETQW but i have been told that it lost its uniqueness and doesnt differ much from any other MP FPS out there.whirlingdervish said:
i completely agree on the later part in regard to content but even with my basic understanding i still can say that it is BS to compare designated FPS engine and adapted engine beth , ignoring its differences and pros and claim laziness.whirlingdervish said:
Has this been pointed out yet? Haven't bothered to check through all of this thread.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/bethesdas-new-game-is-for-current-platforms-pretty-far-along/
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/08/16/bethesdas-new-game-is-for-current-platforms-pretty-far-along/
UncannyGarlic
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
So what, because they choose a bad engine for the types of games that they like to make they get a break when it comes to FPS gameplay? Now that's some bull, the majority of their games is FPP combat, which in Fallout 3 is FPS gameplay. I'm also not sure how much of that has anything to do with properly programming AI...mor said:
My experience has been that it's all about the ability level of the programmer. For example, the AI in NWN is pretty basic (stupid) but on an online server (Abyss 404) that I played on the designer had written custom AI scripts for most of the enemies in the game. He made these fast, low health enemies work in groups and melee attack once then run away before attacking again so that if you targeted them at the wrong time you would run after them and never catch them, you'd just be swarmed by the other guys. I'm thinking that they were programmed to work well in groups as well but I can't remember exactly how. The point is that they took a game with fairly unsophisticated AI and made it sophisticated. Granted, the guy was a professional programmer (not a game designer) and did some really awesome stuff without requiring any hak packs to be downloaded, so he isn't your average Yogi Bear, but game companies have huge budgets and a large staff so...
All in all I think it's somewhat unfair to blame all of the problems on the engine, I'm sure it's a factor but, as Todd just admited, I think the bigger problem is that Beth simply doesn't have very good programmers or their design approach is so shitty that their programmers can't overcome the lack of design that they have to work with. Don't get me wrong, they need to switch engines but I don't think it's fair to Gamebryo to be pointing to it as much as people have.
TheWesDude
Sonny, I Watched the Vault Bein' Built!
NiRv4n4 said:
ahhh, so reviewers can overlook the flaws in games such as fallout 3, some of which were game and quest breaking, but when it comes to something like alpha protocol, they mysteriously lose the ability to do that?
fallout 3 was bad. really bad.
what happened to the days of jwilson vs OSI and shit like that?
would NEVER happen today. last time a reviewer tried to get honest, he got fired for it. hows them apples.
first technically fallout was much better than alpha protocolTheWesDude said:
and second in two words, target audience... alpha protocol is just not a game for the masses, most will say its a crappy game after getting acquainted with the no save game, waypoint system or if they was unlucky enough to choose any of the half pointless none functional skills.
or the simple formula in fO3 you cannot get stuck for half fan hour doing the same level without an option to proceed = FO3 >> alpha protocol sux (plus they got cool slooow mo from the start)
obviously its the same as if i a thread saying that FO3 is great and FO1/2 sux and that i consider FO3 to be the only real FO because its a great FPS and shiny graphics and cool... at best i'll be regarded as troll, while posting the same on some FO3 forum will get me praise...TheWesDude said:
reviewers job is to review and evaluate according to their readers interests, since when personal opinion has anything to do your job...
i didnt said it was a bad engine, on the contrary i think that previously mentioned engine will be far worse for FO3 even if he looked nice at that FPS, besides at that time gamebryo was regarded as one of the best generic engines...UncannyGarlic said:
obviously the AI is crap but i not much than most of the games in that genre at the same time they did many things better, so most of those lazy and stupid comments on this thread was just vents.
i also think that if anyone was given the option between going with a whole new engine (with all the cons its entitles) or keep working with an engine your team have experience with, technically, creatively and has working assets and models for it, its not really a hard choice.