Bethesda vs Interplay on Fallout Online

[mor]

What? FOnline, no MMO? Explain please.

And yes, we got 500+ players already on spike-times. Not bad for a non-commercial MMO, based on a 10+ years old game, with absolutly no nub protection in the game.

really not bad and i am planing to check it out, but from a commercial stand point its total loss.

6 years of development and you barely got enough donations to run a server for few month... (what if you had to pay all those guys)
what will happen when more ppl join? you cannot hope that the same ppl will keep shit shoveling for long you'll need more content and more bandwidth/servers = more cost

but no one will pay for it now, so you'll have to alternative payment oprions from extra option i assume, that if you are not going to get sued the moment you try to make it anything more than just a none profit "mod"...

 

[Lexx]

6 years of development and you barely got enough donations to run a server for few month...

You are confusing something. First, the engine was written by only one person over many years. Second, the open beta test isn't running very long yet and third, FOnline: 2238 is a completely new game, based on the FOnline engine. The total working time on this game now is a bit less than two years. (And no, shit shoveling is not the only content, even if everyone is talking about it alone.)

The server we are using is good, no need to change anything. Also it's not very expensive and fully paid for this period of time + some time longer, thanks to player donations.

About getting sued 'n shit, nobody here cares. We will see what happens, if something happens at all.

The game is never meaned to become commercial. We are working on it in the same way as the Mutants Rising team is working on Mutants Rising or the BGE team is working on BGE, etc. It's just for fun, with no hang to make lots of moneys out of it.

 

[mor]

i think you misunderstood, i wasnt criticizing your work on the contrary i think its nice

i was trying help people adjust their expectations in regard to a commercial FOOL by beth or inter...

 

[Arden]

I fear, that they will go the usual MMORPG-route wich means:
- no/restricted pvp but the pvp they have with no consequences whatsoever
- mobfarming as main income (xp, money and gear)
- raid-like events for big groups
- clan/guild/corporation organizations that dont have any impact in the world

this will result in the usual:
- rush in of subscribers the first few months
- rush out of subscribers bickering about balance, lack of content and end-game goals
- rush in of tons of gold-farmers
- frantic searches for safespots/workarounds to harvest mobs
- general chat filling up with comments like "TANK LFG LVL17 to farm BIGBADBOSS" and "your mother sucks"

instead i hope for a game that does it like this:
- open pvp but with heavy consequences for assaulting players (outlaw status)
- no money-loot from critters whatsoever, instead perhaps raw materials and xp
- no or only cheap lootbuyer-npcs (no influx of money out of nowhere, no inflation)
- complicated and rewarding crafting system using player harversted ressources, apart from some basic gear, all the stuff is player-made
- no balancing of general-classes, a trader is a trader and not a fighter
- conquerable outposts/camps/mines/whatever to generate a small ammount of ressources
- player-driven factions (no bos in this case, those should be GM-controlled) consisting of all the clans/guilds in the faction. The player decide what their faction does or does not do
- GM-Events based on player-driven faction-dynamics
- strong restrictions in storage capacity (fits fallout too) so no ten houses full of stuff, billions of gold on the bank etc., deters goldfarmers and adds dynamic-economy (no hoarding)
- storage can be upgraded through clan-settelments a bit but should be hard to get

This way the kiddies will perhaps get a shot at it to grief some noobs but would bail out after being hunted, shot by guards, not traded with. It would still be possible to roleplay a raider but griefing is discouraged.
Too much hassle for goldfarmers, too difficult for braindead "whre can i gets stuff? can i has yr stuff m8?"-retards
There would be a place for politicians, traders and diplomats not just dmg-dealers and supporters/healers
Endgame-content is just living in this place, builiding up of settelments, reputation and influence in a constant struggle

To my knowlege only two games tried this approach, eve, wich is still ongoing quite successcully but with a goldseller-problem, and necron, wich had good ideas but failed miserably at realising them.
Time for a new try. Its easy to say that mmorpg-players only want the same old same old if there is no alternative to prove that wrong.

 

[Kerr-Plomb]

instead i hope for a game that does it like this:
- open pvp but with heavy consequences for assaulting players (outlaw status)
- no money-loot from critters whatsoever, instead perhaps raw materials and xp
- no or only cheap lootbuyer-npcs (no influx of money out of nowhere, no inflation)
- complicated and rewarding crafting system using player harversted ressources, apart from some basic gear, all the stuff is player-made
- no balancing of general-classes, a trader is a trader and not a fighter
- conquerable outposts/camps/mines/whatever to generate a small ammount of ressources
- player-driven factions (no bos in this case, those should be GM-controlled) consisting of all the clans/guilds in the faction. The player decide what their faction does or does not do
- GM-Events based on player-driven faction-dynamics
- strong restrictions in storage capacity (fits fallout too) so no ten houses full of stuff, billions of gold on the bank etc., deters goldfarmers and adds dynamic-economy (no hoarding)
- storage can be upgraded through clan-settelments a bit but should be hard to get

Sounds, in many points, like SWG, a game were all the loot were ressources to create items by players, it was a dream.

 

[TheBearPaw]

Holy shit, Arden, you got it all figured out.

 

[Hellfate]

The only problem i see with that is open pvp. In most cases Open PVP just becomes an annoyance when your trying to do whatever it is your doing. I have yet to see a system with open pvp that truly discourages high lvl people from pickin on low lvl people. especially since the high level people that engage in that behavior tend to have nothing better to do and level several characters high enuff to do that. OH theres a bounty on my head, well ill just play this other guy thats the exact same but with a different name. The main problem with MMOs are PEOPLE. people suck, its that simple.
I would prefer the PVP not be open but guild related. As in if you and a bunch of your friends formed a guild/clan, u can then engage in pvp based on that. would also like to see the possiblity to settle in the wasteland and make a guild/clan fortress.

 

[mor]

i'll agree, most games with open PVP just turn to be into wild west instead of plot based.

i just tried FOonline 2238 what a disappointment, i started in NCR after reading that it suppose to be protected for noobs apparently not...

after an hour of crap shoveling i lost everything, apparently there is a 4 guys rotation just picking clean anyone who comes to trade, either before or just after before you manage to equip whatever you bought...
and there is nothing you can do, you see someone failed to steal from you so, what you cannot attack him, you cannot report him and you cannot stop him, all you can is just run in circles like an idiot, ok not a problem shit happens... so more crap shoveling running like an idiot around the tent, managing to buy a gun and equip it.

phone rings, i send my char into ncr to stand near a cop to discourage stealing, i come back... i am dead shot by the cop, why?

anyway i lose all my stuff and i teleported into den, why?!
i try to move i encounter gnagsters, i try to run but die...
i am teleported to hell knows where, i try to go back to ncr, i escape 3 encounters on the 4 i die... i am teleported back to the middle of no where X6


great gameplay, great story, great rpg... (obvious sarcasm)

 

[Lexx]

Well, it's obvious, that you didn't read much before starting. And yes, this is a game, where you should read some stuff, before starting.

Also, FOnline: 2238 has no main story for the player. You are no hero, no vault dweller and no chosen one. Beside this, you can do what you want to.

 

[mor]

actually i did read, most of the wiki articles although its wasnt really useful (btw you should use categories)

the problem that someone confused challenging with something else, there is nothing challenging in 12 attempts to get to NCR after getting killed there is nothing challenging at not being able to pause when you are in "common" place or get harassed by higher level players...

or looking like an idiot for encounters to find the location of a magically teleporting wood so i can chop it, so after 30 minutes of looking for it (finding tint, make a tool, chopping a wood and obviously encounter you dead... ) start over ...

its pointless, there is no real progresion i cannot leave markers on the map and comeback i cannot outsmart them use sneak or run... or go to a lower level location or even do crap shoveling when there is 4 guys there literally fighting over crap.

there is some very challenging games around (especially on the asian market) but even they keep the basic which is making the game fun...

also the social part is the same copy paste i am selling and more than half of the guys dont even speak english ...
and with the quest are basically get me this get me that, i dont see much point but get better join a gang and kill stuff, which sound worse than FO3 only in 2D...

 

[Eve`]

Someone writing an opinion on a game he's barely tried? Surely you want to New Vegas preview threads?

Of course comparing 2238 to FO:OL is pointless. One is made by a handfull of guys with no real incentive to grow the playerbase by having to make decisions to allow people access to the game easily - Interplay will have many people working on it full time and the sole aim to make money from the whole affair.


Interplay have to care about newb welfare, so this will colour the entire game.

 

[TheBearPaw]

Yeah, plus that's exactly the purpose of the beta we all signed up for- to try and tailor FOOL. Hopefully it'll turn out into somethin'.

 

[mor]

Of course comparing 2238 to FO:OL is pointless. One is made by a handfull of guys with no real incentive to grow the playerbase by having to make decisions to allow people access to the game easily - Interplay will have many people working on it full time and the sole aim to make money from the whole affair.


Interplay have to care about newb welfare, so this will colour the entire game.

which was exactly my point, FOOL will look nothing like 2238, no matter how much hopes you put into interplay.

its simple, almost bankrupt company with no real guaranties and additional income will not get the initial capital with business plan that includes marginal group as its target audience using a proven recipe for disaster.
that of course if they stupid enough to even consider this, the MMORPG is littered with thousands upon thousands of such failed attempts...

and its not my opinion its what is, if you wish i can give you MMORPG's charts and statistics splits, from age,sex's to which activities ppl engage when online etc... basically showing what brings money (which is main point of this whole fiasco)
eventually its the share holders who tailor the game, we are only helping to polish it (whatever they say)

Sounds, in many points, like SWG, a game were all the loot were ressources to create items by players, it was a dream.

yep it was a dream for the veterans, it was also subscription disaster, this why the change that all the veterans hated wasnt revoked because its worked, subscription went up, this why Lucas arts new mmorpg is nothing like SWG...

games need to be fun, for everyone no only for 15old kid who got no life playing the game 18hours a day and spawn rape you when you just log for few minutes after work before going to sleep trying to say hi to few friends...

 

[TheWesDude]

arden, you are an idiot.

no really you are.

you want elements that other MMOs have tried in various forms, and always got rid of.

for very good reasons.

players.

you are an idiot because you havent paid attention to MMOs when they tried those ideas and concepts you listed, and FAILED once they became open to the public.

the IDEA may be good, but there is no way to execute them without killing your playerbase.

only a MMO that does not give a shit about new players or retaining players can do those things.

the biggest thing you say is you want open PvP. numerous MMOs have tried this. no, really, they have. and they fail.

there has not been a major MMO that succeeds with longevity that has full and open PvP.

players mess it up.

 

[Lexx]

Worst enemy of every MMO-idea are the players.

If you add open pvp to every area of the game, especially newbies will be very much pissed (as you can see on the poster some posts above :>). A commercial MMO needs at least some non-pvp zones.

 

[Dario ff]

I guess that the best way of designing an MMO, is always thinking that there'll be always an addicted with no life freak which will take advantage of the smallest flaw in the game. The problem is, once somebody knows it, word gets spread fast, and then everyone starts taking advantage without having investigated themselves in the first place.

I guess Lexx might have some examples on this one.

 

[Arden]

I know that "open pvp" attracts the kind of unsavory player called griefer. And people like that can ruin a mmorpg in no time if left unchecked. But limiting combat only through mechanics doesnt work either. In eve for example it is not 0.0 sec space (no restrictions on pvp whatsoever) that is a problem. The alliances enforce their law ruthlessliy and efficiently if you turn up there to hunt some noobs. The playground of griefers and bullys is high sec empire-space (supposedly pretty safe). Wardecing of noobcorps, canbaiting, canflipping, contractscamming... those are all wonderfully innovative ways of annoying new player and they happen through loopholes in the rules and misuse of gamemechanics. Griefers arent interested in pvp as such, they want to annoy people.

Problems with safezones are the tranisitons between them. You can annoy a lot of people outside and then run for the safe zone. It does not only protect those it should. As soon as you put a mechanic or rule in place to restrict something, it has the potential to create more problems. Never underestimate the ingenuity of a jerk determinded to ruin your day. And thats why most games either restrict pvp althogether or have huge problems with griefers.

Instead of thinking up a ton of mechanics, why not look into real life? There are no safe zones, everyone can kill everybody yet it does not happen. Because everyone knows what the consequences are. You cant run into another zone (or you keep running), you cant hide until the aggressiontimer runs out. Instead you get hunted down, incarcerated or killed and thats it.

How about open pvp but as aggresor your char can now be permakilled? A serious player would be careful of the risks involved, law-enforcers/bountyhunters would hunt you down. Griefers would never be able to get to a high level if they have to start over again every time they bug a noob and would be no match for a seasoned sheriff.

This reminds me of a point i forgot to mention in my earlier post: ONE character/account is essential too. No mules, no spys (unless you dedicate your char to it), no traderbitches, no hiding.

There are other ways too, i'm sure. Just make it so that consequences are heavy and the effort is big and your average griefer wont bother.

 

[MrCanon]

you want elements that other MMOs have tried in various forms, and always got rid of.

for very good reasons.

players.

you are an idiot because you havent paid attention to MMOs when they tried those ideas and concepts you listed, and FAILED once they became open to the public.

the IDEA may be good, but there is no way to execute them without killing your playerbase.

only a MMO that does not give a shit about new players or retaining players can do those things.

the biggest thing you say is you want open PvP. numerous MMOs have tried this. no, really, they have. and they fail.

there has not been a major MMO that succeeds with longevity that has full and open PvP.

players mess it up.

I agree on one thing.
They've all somewhat failed.

...BUT that's because those MMOs are either low budgeted, or seriously lacked the talented people with ideas to design a FFA world.

Have you read the forums from some of those PvP-only games ? If you remove all the fanboish and elitist backlash, there are a number of reasonable suggestions to fix all these issues. Most of the time the devs just ignore though.

All we need is a company with the right ideas to give us the type of FFA game we all want without the grief and frustration. It is doable for sure.

 

[Lexx]

Well, depends very hard. Not all ideas from players can be done that way. Also it might be possible, that some ideas wouldn't work at all. And keep in mind: Writing down some ideas is always easier than doing it later. If you have to implement something, you need to think about even more things, than the player who wrote down "a simple idea."

 

[mor]

Instead of thinking up a ton of mechanics, why not look into real life?

because ppl dont pay for real life simulation, they pay to get away from it

I agree on one thing.
They've all somewhat failed.

...BUT that's because those MMOs are either low budgeted, or seriously lacked the talented people with ideas to design a FFA world.

Have you read the forums from some of those PvP-only games ? If you remove all the fanboish and elitist backlash, there are a number of reasonable suggestions to fix all these issues. Most of the time the devs just ignore though.

All we need is a company with the right ideas to give us the type of FFA game we all want without the grief and frustration. It is doable for sure.

no, ppl here just dont like it, there is only one such game that i know of and its for the asian market.

its the same thing as with old movies vs new movies or the way games are being made today...
with endless autosave and hand holding avoiding creating real chalnge or god forbid some frustration from the player... (while some of my favorite games where such)

ppl today want quick gratification they dont want to shit shovel ...