Black Lives Matter

What I think is that most of the social or political opinions are formed accordingly to very personal experiences. The most hardcore right wingers here in Slovakia are born in regions with highest gypsy population so they experience the criminality first hand. And vice versa, liberals are shielded from these negative impacts by high living standards of middle/high class district in big cities, far from the most affected regions.

EX.

FUCKING.

ACTLY.

Look at the celebrities who go "WE NEED MORE IMMIGRANTS!".

They're rich, and haven't seen a fucking immigrant with their own eyes, in fact, they PUT UP WALLS TO KEEP PEOPLE AWAY FROM THEIR HOMES.

The irony is delicious.
 
What I think is that most of the social or political opinions are formed accordingly to very personal experiences. The most hardcore right wingers here in Slovakia are born in regions with highest gypsy population so they experience the criminality first hand. And vice versa, liberals are shielded from these negative impacts by high living standards of middle/high class district in big cities, far from the most affected regions.
I'm not, I've never been shielded from it as I have grown up with many muslims, minorities and I also knew a few criminals, mostly east europeans though in particular polish friends, they used to take drugs and sometimes geting in trouble with the police. I have spend most of my young live in poverity, but I had also sometimes to deal with discrimination and even neonazis.

As far as Germany goes, actually many 'extreme rightwingers' with high xenophobic feelings actually can be found in regions with the smallest number of foreigners or non-germans where as one of the most 'liberal' area is Cologne, which has a high number of immigrants.

As someone who has a serbian family, I can tell you that xenophobia and discrimination is simply something that is very prevalent with east europeans, that's a fact. Homsexuality, jews, sinti/roma and many other minorities never had it really easy - and they still don't, homosexuals in particular have a very difficult stance in Serbia.
 
I'm not, I've never been shielded from it as I have grown up with many muslims, minorities and I also knew a few criminals, mostly east europeans though in particular polish friends, they used to take drugs and sometimes geting in trouble with the police.
Living among criminals you're considering to be your friends is not the same as living among criminals considering you to be their enemy. They tend to beat you up, rob you, or steal your dog and ate it! I kid you not, there are villages in Slovakia constantly raided by organized groups of gypsy dog stealers, cooking up stolen animals in order to eat it, and proudly displaying the dog hides at the ghetto villages afterwards. The same goes for horses, livestock, everything. It's quite hard to live close to gypsy ghetto without becoming hard boiled right winger, really.

I have spend most of my young live in poverity, but I had also sometimes to deal with discrimination and even neonazis.
Yes, that's my point - social/political beliefs formed by personal experience. You've been endangered by neonazis, you hate them. Wait until some moslem traditionalists would attack you and we'll see what happens.

As someone who has a serbian family, I can tell you that xenophobia and discrimination is simply something that is very prevalent with east europeans, that's a fact. Homsexuality, jews, sinti/roma and many other minorities never had it really easy - and they still don't, homosexuals in particular have a very difficult stance in Serbia.
Yes, I'm aware of that. There are still some traditional Christian-only small villages in eastern Slovakia with the same approach, most of our country is pretty progressive and tolerant though. To the point that recent referendum aimed against homosexual partnerships iniciated by KBS (our Christian church HQ) failed miserably.

Since you appreciate youtube clips, enjoy! This guy has nailed it alright: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzmYvJesP1g
 
I've been mugged by gypsies :D

I know how this psychological mechanic works, and how easy it works, but I am adament we - as humans - should be stronger than to just let ourselves be driven by it.
I hate to say it, but my own brother lets himself be taken along by that mechanic very easily, and on several occasions he has told me that if only I worked his hours and paid his taxes, I would also hate immigrants, since I would be very tired at the end of the day, and I'd see "lazy immigrants" "hanging around" from the window of my car.
He actually spelled out that last part, and is STILL not fully aware that brown people being outdoors have nothing to do with HIS tiredness from work!
First: What I just said, brown people have little to do with your tiredness after work.
Secondly: I pay the same taxes, he just assumes I don't. Fallacy of assumption.
Third: He mocks our dad for being a "bleeding heart", while guess what: He works MORE, and has a family to take care of. Which sortof just makes my brother a grumpy crybaby. The man he mocks, instead of looks up to, works MORE, is MORE tired, ends up with LESS spending money for himself, yet has MORE sympathy left over for lazy brown people he can see from his car on his way home from work. And just to hammer it in, dad often works overtime. My brother does not. Dad spends his tired time at home sober, reality crisp in his face. My brother immediately gets drunk.

Also, my mother works in a primary school, where she sees first hand the different behavior in the refugee kids. They're more wild, more "untame" as we often accuse them of being, more difficult to deal with. But my mother also has contact with their parents, who are shattered, desperate people, who show immense gratitude towards her for trying to mend their traumatized kids, AND she hears stories from the kids, about seeing shit that we, here, put "graphic warnings" on footage of, they have seen it live, right in front of their faces.

And of course, everyone would be frightened by the imaginary result of mass immigration. I don't LIKE to imagine myself swimming in a dangerous swimming pool of muggers and rapists and criminals. It's a bad image. But it's also not a REAL image, it's just my imagination.

Anyway, one thing I have always agreed with, is that integration has rarely been firmly applied, and that it needs to be. An example of good integration is what my mother does, at the primary school, by helping to raise refugee kids as norwegians, and informing their parents closely on the progress.
Formation of ghettos is not a given, and immigrants who have been integrated do indeed become "brown norwegians" who only looks different visually, but talk, think and behave like true norwegians.
That's what I find so sad, in the past we were much more accustomed to that idea, while now we only see foreigners as intruders, regardless of their effort to become one of us. Once you no longer feel included by a group, you don't even WANT to be one of them, so it becomes circular.
Those immigrants who have allready been granted a place here, should be integrated right away, or we are only increasing the problem in a self prophesizing way.
 
I'm always surprised of how low the crime in Munich is, given the fact that the school where I am working is a real hell hole, with drugs and all sorts of misbehaviour by the teenagers. I think a part that really helps is how well the managemend by the city is, we have no real ghettos in Munich, you see luxurious neighberhoods mixed in with the families of immigrants or foreigners, so you don't end up with thousands of people in just one part of the city, like how they did it in Paris.

iving among criminals you're considering to be your friends is not the same as living among criminals considering you to be their enemy. They tend to beat you up, rob you, or steal your dog and ate it! I kid you not, there are villages in Slovakia constantly raided by organized groups of gypsy dog stealers, cooking up stolen animals in order to eat it, and proudly displaying the dog hides at the ghetto villages afterwards. The same goes for horses, livestock, everything. It's quite hard to live close to gypsy ghetto without becoming hard boiled right winger, really.
But what do you think is the driving factor behind it? My guess would be poverty, at least for most of it, granted some people just love to fuck shit up but they can be found everywhere - that's the experience I made.

Yes, that's my point - social/political beliefs formed by personal experience. You've been endangered by neonazis, you hate them. Wait until some moslem traditionalists would attack you and we'll see what happens.
I don't necessarily 'hate' them, a good child hood friend of mine was once a neo-nazi, he shaved his head got all that nazi-stuff going almost the full program. But he managed to get out of it before it was to late. It was a communist who talked him out of it that's what my friend told us later.

I reject viollence as appropiate answer to neo-nazis - as long it doesn't happen in self defence -, which is one thing I really do not value with the left since they have their fair share of radicals and complete morrons too. Busting the heads of nazis, isn't something I consider a solution in a democratic society. I simply don't generalize people, as I hate ideas and ideologies not the people which follow them. We have laws, and everyone is compelled to follow them.

Also, you do again what you always do, you don't differentiate you oversimplify the situation by talking about a large group of people like as they all would be some kind of Borgcollective, like as humans don't have motivations or some kind of history behind them.

I mean, as like I would somehow support fanatism or extremism or that I somehow want them to be here and killing people. Of course we should take actions against anyone who's out there to harm others, at the end of the day they are still humans though even the worst neo-nazi or islamic terrorist. I am someone who actually wants to understand why it happens, and finding the best way to eventually prevent it. See, I am working a lot with troubled children, children that have been abused and treated badly, I have them in my job and I spend part of my free time playing soccer with a youth organisation. When you look at the history of young people which get radicalized it has quite often something to do with the situation they are in, young confused males which faced a lot of rejection in their life without their family supporting them and the wrong role models to look up to. The youth organisation is managed by an really great guy, who recently visited Kenia to support a group there, also trough soccer. His idea or concept is to not just play with the kidz and teenagers, but to be like a big brother for them building reltionships. And that's how you get trough them, how you combat radicalisation and the typical frustration that comes with all teenagers at some point.

It has a lot to do with our environment and how socialiy they are accepted as individual. This goes for many young people, not just young muslims but young Germans who decide to join radical neo-nazi movements as well. I want to understand, why a young person which had a seemingly decent live decides to suddenly become a radical.
 
Last edited:
What I think is that most of the social or political opinions are formed accordingly to very personal experiences. The most hardcore right wingers here in Slovakia are born in regions with highest gypsy population so they experience the criminality first hand. And vice versa, liberals are shielded from these negative impacts by high living standards of middle/high class district in big cities, far from the most affected regions.

I think this is also where some of the illegal immigrant stuff comes into play here. There are tons of illegal immigrants working in pipelining here and they take a lot of the jobs that would go to guys that are paying taxes.
 
Also, you do again what you always do, you don't differentiate you oversimplify the situation by talking about a large group of people like as they all would be some kind of Borgcollective, like as humans don't have motivations or some kind of history behind them.
You would be surprised that there are exactly Borg-like gypsy collectives here in Slovakia. Mountain villages with 100% unemployment rate living on welfare and criminal activities, plundering woods, poisoning drinking water sources with industrial garbage, deliberately suckling on state teets.

Class disparity and poverty is a problem, not the reason behind this behavior though. There's a lot of free work positions for low qualified labour force in western region where I live, and many gypsy dudes traveled here in order to get decent work and live decent lives. Paying taxes, respecting law, normal citizens. Another hundreds of thousands are nomadic people who despise any organized society, preferring nomadic life without any long term responsibilities instead. That's collective mentality, hundreds of centuries old heritage passed from low class gypsies following armies as a blacksmiths hundreds years ago, before deserting in order to live safely in this region. More so, they are proud of this ancient nomadic mentality and personal freedom, passing it from generation to generation proudly, that's why they are so hard to integrate.
 
Then what is the exact reason for this behaviour, in your own words? Is it just a cultural difference? Do you have something to back that claim up that isn't anecdotal evidence. Some serious research here would be welcome. I'm just curious.

It would be also interesting to hear what you think should be done to fix the issue.
 
The reason is everything combined together, there's not a single one to point out and say "this is it".

Also, what from my previous post is anecdotal evidence according to you? All I can see is you writing about criminal friends who are tripping on drugs, or your neo-nazi friend shaving his head. That's anecdotal evidence actually.

How to fix the issue? Perhaps there's not any fix at all. You can't separate people and force them to live where you'd like to. Moslems would seek for moslem wifes, gypsies for gypsy wifes, whiteys for whitey wifes; they'll travel across the coutry to form their communities, eventually open their own shops with their own traditional food, build churches and whatnot.. That's natural flow in every society and that's why there are districts such as Molenbeek in Brussels. The more numerous minority, the faster it happens.
 
I'm sure that with the collapse of the Berlin wall etc. and the onset of totally benign and nice free market economy taking over the reigns over there, it will only be a matter of time before eastern Europe will become a nice, humane place to live in and to visit.
 
The reason is everything combined together, there's not a single one to point out and say "this is it".

Also, what from my previous post is anecdotal evidence according to you? All I can see is you writing about criminal friends who are tripping on drugs, or your neo-nazi friend shaving his head. That's anecdotal evidence actually.

How to fix the issue? Perhaps there's not any fix at all. You can't separate people and force them to live where you'd like to. Moslems would seek for moslem wifes, gypsies for gypsy wifes, whiteys for whitey wifes; they'll travel across the coutry to form their communities, eventually open their own shops with their own traditional food, build churches and whatnot.. That's natural flow in every society and that's why there are districts such as Molenbeek in Brussels. The more numerous minority, the faster it happens.
Well, then I would have to ask you for your sources for a claim like:

"Another hundreds of thousands are nomadic people who despise any organized society, preferring nomadic life without any long term responsibilities instead."​

And/or performing activities like, I quote you:

"You would be surprised that there are exactly Borg-like gypsy collectives here in Slovakia. Mountain villages with 100% unemployment rate living on welfare and criminal activities, plundering woods, poisoning drinking water sources with industrial garbage, deliberately suckling on state teets."​

Also, I never never argued that anything I said, wasn't purely anecdotal, but you started your point about how opinions are formed by experience with specific ethnicities.
 
@Crni:
I also wrote that many gypsy dudes found work in our western region and settled down, why are you omitting it?

Anyway:
http://romafacts.uni-graz.at/index.php/culture/introduction/roma-culture
As shown in the table, itinerant Roma prevailed in the Soviet Union and Poland, over 3/4 of the Roma in Poland and at least 2/3 of the total Roma pulation in the Soviet Union were nomads. At the other end of the spectrum were Bulgaria and Czechoslovakia, where itinerant Roma subject to government policy were fewer than 5% of the total Roma population. In the rest of the countries the relative share of nomadic Roma varied between these two extremes. In Romania and Yugoslavia the proportion of itinerant Roma was less than 1/3, and in Hungary and Albania less than 1/4 of the total.

Despite policies intended for Roma to completely break with their nomadic traditions, some Roma groups managed to preserve their semi-nomadic way of life until today (with a nomadic season in the warm period of the year while staying at their own homes during winter). Such well-known semi-nomadic groups are for instance the Thracian Kalajdžii (tinsmiths) in Bulgaria and the so-called Lâeši or Pletoši or Kortorari in Romania.
 
In which way is it relevant? You made a claim that catched my interest - see my quotes, in particular this one:

"You would be surprised that there are exactly Borg-like gypsy collectives here in Slovakia. Mountain villages with 100% unemployment rate living on welfare and criminal activities, plundering woods, poisoning drinking water sources with industrial garbage, deliberately suckling on state teets."

- and I am just asking for sources to back up that claim. Is that a problem? Maybe I am assuming to much, but it just seemed to me, like you are under the impression that most nomadic sinti and roma would kinda comit this kind of behaviour. If that is indeed the case, then I would at least like to have some solid data on it. If I am wrong, well then I appologize, hence why I am just asking you, since I wanted to have some clarification.

To quote from the actuall link you gave:

When talking about the culture of the Roma, the main problem appears to be tackling the established stereotypes which have existed for centuries. This does not only refer to widespread public prejudices (e.g. the legend about “Gypsies stealing small children) whose roots lie in the Middle Ages with the appearance of the so-called “Gypsies” (Zigeuner, Bohemians, Tsiganes, Zingari, Gitanos, etc.) in western Europe. It also superimposed new patterns with positive connotations, such as the “Gypsies” free lifestyle, not limited by any social norms which were established during the Age of Romanticism. There are, however, many stereotypes about “Gypsies” in academic research as well, which still continue to have a negative impact on the understanding and public presentation of Romani culture.

The presentation of the ethnic culture of the Roma living in the countries of central, eastern and south-eastern Europe (and also of those having migrated to western Europe past and recent decades too), inevitably should be done through comparison and critical contrast to certain firmly established concepts about Roma culture found in numerous academic studies and opposing the dominant idea of its exclusive exotic and unique character.


I mean if someone made the claim, black people comit more crimes compared to white people while also talking about "black-culture", then I would also like to know where those figures are coming from. I mean you do hopefully acknowledge, that we are talking about a topic, where it is very difficult to seperate factual research from prejudice or opiniated experience.
 
Last edited:
In which way is it relevant?
In a way you have quoted my post about nomadic gypsy traditions. Since you don't remember the content of your own posts, I find any discussion with you to be a wasted time.

As for your second quote, here's one of many sources anyway:
http://i.sme.sk/cdata/5/42/4299505/sprava_o_romoch_v_SR.pdf
This is official report from our sociologists, you can find their credentials on page 74. Since it's in Slovak language, this is freely translated snippet from box 2.3 on page 21; feel free to google-translate the rest for yourself:

"Kolackov is a segregated village counting 220 inhabitants, municipality Stara Lubovna. None of existing houses in this village is legally registered. Unemployment rate is reaching 100 percent. One family counting seven members, one of them being 17 years old pregnant girl, is living in two rooms builded from wood and sheet metal. The housing doesn't have any access to water, neither plumbing. Trash collection services are not provided here."

Another interview with one of the sociologists explains further how things are going in this village:
https://www.sme.sk/c/514566/romske-osady-uplna-chudoba.html

The same village, Kolackov. In a few words - only a part of these people is living on welfare. Another part doesn't exist officialy, they don't have any registration documents, neither birth certificates, so they are not allowed to apply in our social system. That's why there is high criminality rate in this village - usurers mostly. These criminals own expensive cell phones and cars.

edit:
To quote from the actuall link you gave:

When talking about the culture of the Roma, the main problem appears to be tackling the established stereotypes which have existed for centuries. This does not only refer to widespread public prejudices (e.g. the legend about “Gypsies stealing small children) whose roots lie in the Middle Ages
Well, I never wrote they steal kids. What I wrote is that they're stealing and eating dogs:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=S86efXTIYTM
Shortly, police hunted down a couple of gypsy thieves 10 hours after the locals reported missing dogs and rabbits.

Gypsy girl: Yes, my husband stole two dogs and four rabbits.
Reporter: What did you do with it?
Gypsy girl: We ate them.
 
Last edited:
In a way you have quoted my post about nomadic gypsy traditions. Since you don't remember the content of your own posts, I find any discussion with you to be a wasted time.
Very cryptic attack on my personality, thank you. But I am just asking you from where you have the informations and what your sources are. At the very least you provided some ... albeit in a language that I can't read nor can I verify it on it's accuracy.
But I will assume for the sake of the argument that they are correct.

"Kolackov is a segregated village counting 220 inhabitants, municipality Stara Lubovna. None of existing houses in this village is legally registered. Unemployment rate is reaching 100 percent. One family counting seven members, one of them being 17 years old pregnant girl, is living in two rooms builded from wood and sheet metal. The housing doesn't have any access to water, neither plumbing. Trash collection services are not provided here."

Ok, they live in shitty conditions, you proved that. But how has that something to do with their culture? In Somalia and some parts of Detroit people also live in pretty shitty conditions. Also every society has some groups and people which chose to exist 'outside' the system, you have crime organisations within italians, russians, arabians and many other minorities here in Germany as well. Not exactly the same, but I am not sure what you're exactly trying to say here. Why are you so focused on Roma and Sinti? Does the existance of those criminal villages, justify extreme right wing politics? You did mention that many of the Roma and Sinti also decide to work and live with the rest of the Slowakians, just like everyone else. So what are you trying to say? You said in particular :
"Class disparity and poverty is a problem, not the reason behind this behavior though."
So what exactly is the reason behind their behaviour? If they have villages, then they are clearly not nomadic, or not?

"The same village, Kolackov. In a few words - only a part of these people is living on welfare. Another part doesn't exist officialy, they don't have any registration documents, neither birth certificates, so they are not allowed to apply in our social system. That's why there is high criminality rate in this village - usurers mostly. These criminals own expensive cell phones and cars."

Again, what has this to do with the Roman and Sinti in particular?

The reason why I am asking this, is because I am not sure what you're trying to say, on what do you blame this behaviour? Their ethnicity? Their culture? How is a village of 220 people living in shitty conditions relevant to the traditions of the Roma and Sinti?

The more I actually read, the more do I get the impression that the Roma and Sinti in your nation are treated by some like the black people and their communities in the late 19th and early 20th century of the US American Sothern States.
 
I can only speak from my personal experience, but some of the stuff valcik mentions are thing I could believe, based on what I have seen myself.
Gypsies are generally shunned for several reasons. There are stereotypes, there is stuff like poor hygiene, there is stuff like them having many kids they don't take care of which are running in streets in rags - and there is also stuff like many of them living in poor shitholes, being homeless and born to a bad life, higher crime rates etc.

I personally can feel a dose of sympathy for some of them, but I can also understand why people shun them. I know lots of people who have had negative experience with gypsies - my own mother, for example, who works in ambulance, and was attacked or badly treated several times by people whose relatives lives' she tried to save - all for stupid reasons. Not that "non-gypsies" cannot be assholes, quite on contrary, but these are the worst bunch. I know that's a broad statement, but like I've said, I'm speaking from personal experience, so I don't really give a shit.

And then there's the whole welfare thing which is a problem on its own.

I should mention however that those who are regular part of the society are generally treated well. Neo-Nazi fucktards and similar aside, they don't have real problems. It's those from the ghetto that people look away from.
 
I never disputed the issues, I am just not sure why ... it matters, what is the conclussion? Don't trust the Roma?
See, when I am looking at such instances, it really isn't in any way different from what 18th century americans said about black people living in their segregated communities.
It is not different from what they said about irish immigrants fleeing to the united states in the 19th century.
It is not different from what the Germans said about all the polish immigrants, jews, or many other minorities/ethnicities during the 19ths century. Particularly the hate against anything east european, describing them as barbaric, uneducated masses which are just waiting to overrun poor westerners. There is a whole history about it.

And I honestly ask my self, what's he point of it? I have grown up with such a huge variety of people and ethnicities, that I just don't give a fuck anymore, because I met so many assholes in my life and if I had to point one culture out, I couldn't. I clashed with Neonazis, I clashed with fucked up serbians (my own family ...), I had stupid idiotic Germans beeing assholes, and some albanian chick almost kicked me in my face as teenager for the shitty stuff she experienced during the Kosovo war, I've meet uneducated racist Germans who did nothing else but bitching about east europeans and one of my best friends a polish guy told me all homosexuals should be euthanised, a thai guy was always so agro that he wanted to kill his parents, a croatian guy I knew was always so full of drugs that he spend most of his time in hospitals while bitching about Germans. And most of those people havn't been what you could describe as 'well integrated' into society.
 
EX.

FUCKING.

ACTLY.

Look at the celebrities who go "WE NEED MORE IMMIGRANTS!".

They're rich, and haven't seen a fucking immigrant with their own eyes, in fact, they PUT UP WALLS TO KEEP PEOPLE AWAY FROM THEIR HOMES.

The irony is delicious.

Most people live in their own little bubbles and are too stupid to take a peek outside of it once in awhile. They have no idea, the kind of shit other people have to deal with on a daily basis.
 
Back
Top