CT Phipps' review of Fallout 4

[Dr Fallout]

Ever thought of applying for a job at IGN, Phipps?

They just need more intelligent, unbiased and critical thinkers.

 

[aenemic]

They just need more intelligent, unbiased and critical thinkers.

Need =/= want.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Need =/= want.

They thirst for knowledge and nuanced writers.

 

[CT Phipps]

I did a review of Fallout 3 if anyone is interested.

NMA Forum: http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/the-good-aspects-to-fallout-3.204923/page-8#post-4184214

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2015/07/fallout-3-review.html

 

[Dr Fallout]

I did a review of Fallout 3 if anyone is interested.

NMA Forum: http://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/the-good-aspects-to-fallout-3.204923/page-8#post-4184214

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/2015/07/fallout-3-review.html

I didn't read it after the warning.

 

[CT Phipps]

Well you miss Jangles the Moon Monkey then!

 

[mithrap]

As I said to my friend who was asking to buy the game. "Warmed over Fallout is still Fallout."

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Been away for quite a while, just came back to see the news. You have opinions which may not be very popular here, but hey, you seem to express/defend them in a mature way. That's refreshing. And actually, I agree with several of your points. Yes, raiders have humanizing lines, the glowing sea is spectacular, the Brotherhood is no longer a band of white knights, Diamond City has a nice concept etc. I'm surprised you didn't mention the bar in Goodneighboor (the last line, I think it is), which has a "dark city" vibe, and which was one of the only places I really wanted to stay.
Yet, these qualities are too few to count as redeeming, I think. There are simply too much plot holes. Sorry for the long post, but try to make sense of any of that :

-What exactly has the Institute accomplished ? Fallout 4 presents them as the most brilliant scientists of the world, but I can't find a single accomplishment that would justify it. On most levels, they are two centuries behind the other technological forces of America. So... What makes them so "advanced" ?
-Where do the jet come from ? Why is it there ?
-Why does an immortal slave, forever in his prime, with no alimentary needs, is 800 times cheaper than a regular, mortal slave ?
-Where are the commonwealth's factories ? What's their industry ? How can someone become rich and do business ?
-What are the raiders raiding, after 200 years ?
-For what reason are Super Mutants racists ? FEV never turned people into racists.
-Why is Sanctuary empty ? Is there a reason why the Commonwealth is not under the rule of law, with cities, cars and a functional state ? Because even before the Institute's incident, they didn't have a society. Why not ?
-Why did nobody, in half a century, made an educated guess, like "Maybe the Institute is at the Institute of Technology ? That would make sense. Place is crawling with Synths, has the name of the enemy, they even used to live there. We know they buried themselves, and the underground access are sealed. Maybe that's where they are now ?"
-Why does Virgil hides in the glowing sea ? Radiations have no effect on robots. Animals don't eat robots. That's the worst place to hide from a robotic menace I could ever think of.
-Why are people using caps as a currency ? Who backs the caps ? What's their value ? Backed on what ?
-What does the Institute want ? Why can't they make military units, when they had a functional assaultron at their disposal for 200 years ?
-How could Deathclaws migrate to the east coast, and more important : why would they ? The arid environment of the midwest is way more adequate for them, especially considering that they are "evolutionary" creatures. Finding a suitable environment should be their specialty.
-Why were military robots programmed to feel physical pain and emotional shock ?
-How could the Californian Brotherhood back Maxson's rise to power ? They don't have contact lines. And even if they did, the Californian Brotherhood is on its knees, getting massacrated by the NCR.
-Why does a faction entirely dedicated to the preservation of technology decides to blow up the Institute of Technology, which is supposed to be their Graal ?
-How come the Outcasts don't immediately shoot Maxson for high treason at this point ? They already waged a civil war for years for the same reason, and they only calmed their tits because they thought that Maxson was a fundementalist. Aka, a protector of technology.
-Why is the Synth uprising even an issue ? They are tools. Tools can be desactivated, if malfunctioning.
-Why can a Ghoul suddenly survive centuries without food or water, when all previous titles clearly established that they need to eat and drink ?
-Why can feral ghouls avoid bullets and charge ? They are rotting corpses, not anime characters.
-Why does Piper leave her family and business exposed to a psychopath (who, according to her, is a Synth, aka a dangerous creature) who just tried to kill her, and then, threatened a child ?
-Why do robots have a moral compass, a personality, and heck, even a soul ? Robots with personalities require building sized CPUs or a human brain. A cheap butler robot is not a building sized CPU.
-Why does the game asks us "do robots have souls ?" before immediately giving a definitive answer ? As far as I'm concerned, Siri may be nice, but she doesn't have a soul. She's a tool, nothing more.
-Why does the Institute considers Shaun's DNA as pure, considering that he was exposed to a dirty bomb as a baby ? His DNA is the very antithesis of pure, because Gamma Rays' effects on the DNA are immediate.
-Why not a single Synth was captured and tortured to give the Institute's secrets ? Despite what Nick says, Synths can remember the Institute very well.
-How "cleaning the body from chems" could possibly cure a junkie ? If this was this easy, 3 days in a sauna would "cure" every addict.
-Why is the Railroad still alive, considering that there is a red line leading to their HQ, whose password is "railroad" ?
-What's the outcome Vault Tek expected from freezing people, considering that their role is supposed to be "study the social aspects of a community" ?
-Why does hiring a mercenary for life, with no question asked, costs 5 bottles of soda ?
-Why on earth does a peaceful lawyer turn into a killer ?
-Why don't Ghouls spend their days in the memory den ? They litteraly can revive the pre war era, when they were young, human, accepted and had a future.
-Why isn't Cait tied up in a Brotherhood's interrogation room ? She knows the situation in the outside world. Such information is more than valuable. By the way, why is the lone survivor a sociopath ? He has every reason to ask Cait about the world's situation, yet, he doesn't care if billions have survived or not.
-Why can I discuss an order from a high elder and not get shot for disobeying an order in active duty ? Why can't we shoot Preston when he does the same ? On the same subect, why can I bring a ghoul, an Institute Killer, two synths and a super mutant under the nose of an high elder, and not get shot for intelligence with the enemy ?
-Why doesn't Maxson follow the chain that binds, aka, the Brotherhood's holy codex ?
-If Gunners are mercenaries, who pays them, and why ?
-Why isn't Curie the story's hero, considering that she can cure every single disease ? She is litteraly the most important person in the world, at this point. Getting her in danger is more than criminally insane, it's actually some Mufti Husseini level of evil.

 

[CT Phipps]

Thanks, it's good to be here. Nice to meet you mithrap.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I confess, Fallout: Shelter terrifies me. I fear Bethesda really doesn't want to do Fallout games anymore and just wants to make their equivalent of Angry Birds and Minecraft, leaving those who want to wander and explore the wasteland high and dry.

Been away for quite a while, just came back to see the news. You have opinions which may not be very popular here, but hey, you seem to express/defend them in a mature way. That's refreshing. And actually, I agree with several of your points. Yes, raiders have humanizing lines, the glowing sea is spectacular, the Brotherhood is no longer a band of white knights, Diamond City has a nice concept etc. I'm surprised you didn't mention the bar in Goodneighboor (the last line, I think it is), which has a "dark city" vibe, and which was one of the only places I really wanted to stay.

I knew I was coming into a potentially hostile area as I was warned Bethesda was not popular around here but I also knew this to be a active forum which really truly loved Fallout as much as the places I used to post at. I also love the original games and have criticizes of the new even if they're not as extreme as other people's.

Plus, I wanted to discuss a place with all the zip of Nuka Cola.

Yet, these qualities are too few to count as redeeming, I think. There are simply too much plot holes. Sorry for the long post, but try to make sense of any of that :

I have a few thoughts on some of these.

-What exactly has the Institute accomplished ? Fallout 4 presents them as the most brilliant scientists of the world, but I can't find a single accomplishment that would justify it. On most levels, they are two centuries behind the other technological forces of America. So... What makes them so "advanced" ?

Bethesda's portrayal smacks of re-writes as we have a comically evil Institute (releasing Super Mutants they've created) and we have a laid back Institute that just wants to be left alone. It actually does tie into Shaun's statement they need the Sole Survivor more than he needs them because as scientists, they've devoted massive amounts of resources to making artificial gorillas as well as Pinocchio/Synth Shaun over anything actually productive. They're basically a more serious version of the Big Empty combined with Vault City.

Which isn't an unreasonable characterization but it's a pretty boring one.

-Where do the jet come from ? Why is it there ?

This is just one of the lore errors. You could easily have Jet be something Myron copied and/or improved on (since Reno Jet is permanently addictive while regular Jet is not) but without a terminal or conversation, it's just a plot hole.

-Why does an immortal slave, forever in his prime, with no alimentary needs, is 800 times cheaper than a regular, mortal slave ?

If you mean the Ghoul Boy, I think the Gunner was underbidding you.

-Where are the commonwealth's factories ? What's their industry ? How can someone become rich and do business ?

The Commonwealth is an agrarian state with lots of scavenging as we see with Bunker Hill. They have an organized caravaning system so they have basically the Hub situation ala Fallout 1. So, they're far from NCR but better than the Capital Wasteland. Presumably, people do a lot of scavenging and by all the work benches, also scrapping.

-What are the raiders raiding, after 200 years ?

There were pirates in Julius Caesar's time and pirates today. Theft and murder will never go out of style. Also, there's actual communities this time around for Raiders to walk up to and demand caps or food stuffs for. These raiders also don't appear to be cannibals even if they do attack on sight.

-For what reason are Super Mutants racists ? FEV never turned people into racists.

Well, Super Mutants have always believed in their superiority to humans. However, it should be noted these Super Mutants were never educated by the Master in the Unity. They're just a bunch of horribly experimented on and deformed humans dumped in the middle of nowhere. I can understand why they're aggressive and hateful to the race that spawned them.

Not that I suspect Bethesda put too much thought in it beyond, "Why do these guys exist."

-Why is Sanctuary empty ? Is there a reason why the Commonwealth is not under the rule of law, with cities, cars and a functional state ? Because even before the Institute's incident, they didn't have a society. Why not ?

If we buy the Institute's version of events, the Commonwealth's independent settlements don't like one another. However, after 100 years, the fact is the Institute has been actively sewing discord and paranoia throughout the region. They've destroyed whole settlements which were the size of Diamond City too.

The Minutemen also refuse to actively conquer the towns under their protection but only operate via a giving system, which is a shit but very Founding Fathers Pre-Articles of Confederation ideal.

There's also radiation storms from the Glowing Sea so travel is probably dangerous for non-leveled citizens.

-Why did nobody, in half a century, made an educated guess, like "Maybe the Institute is at the Institute of Technology ? That would make sense. Place is crawling with Synths, has the name of the enemy, they even used to live there. We know they buried themselves, and the underground access are sealed. Maybe that's where they are now ?"

I don't think anyone with a smattering of Pre-War knowledge thinks the Institute ISN'T the Commonwealth Institute of Technology or its descendants. I'm sure there's been plenty of people who have gone there to investigate but there's no secret tunnel down to the Institute or Synth factories or community. It's for all intents and purposes an empty series of buildings.

Basically, if they were underground, they would have a Vault entrance somewhere. Teleportation is technology beyond what the Commonwealth would deem possible.

-Why does Virgil hides in the glowing sea ? Radiations have no effect on robots. Animals don't eat robots. That's the worst place to hide from a robotic menace I could ever think of.

3rd Generation Synths are nearly identical to humans and Death Claws attack Curie and Danse. It's also a place where the Institute has no spies or replacements. It's very probable he thinks he can hide from them better there and take 1st and 2nd generation Synths on. Remember, he's living in a literal cave in the middle of nowhere.

-Why are people using caps as a currency ? Who backs the caps ? What's their value ? Backed on what ?

Bunker Hill, unlike the Capital Wasteland, actually can serve as a medium center for trade. Ditto Diamond City. As for why caps, why not caps? Indeed, they may have started being used in the Commonwealth and traveled up and down the East Coast.

-What does the Institute want ? Why can't they make military units, when they had a functional assaultron at their disposal for 200 years ?

The Institute is Vault City. Slaves, Science, and Haughtiness. It wants to be left alone and yet also have access to any useful Pre-War Technology the surface world possesses. Basically, they're all take and no give. As for their military capacity, 1st generation synths seem perfectly fine for their needs as Coursers are meant to be Terminators.

-How could Deathclaws migrate to the east coast, and more important : why would they ? The arid environment of the midwest is way more adequate for them, especially considering that they are "evolutionary" creatures. Finding a suitable environment should be their specialty.

It's been 200 years and they're Alpha Predators. Humans have literally walked from coast to coast in far less time. For an RL example, Plains Indian culture was built around the taming of the horse in the 19th century with them holding a sacred and important place in their culture. Horses didn't exist in North America until the Spainards had brought them to Mexico and many escaped into the Wild.

-Why were military robots programmed to feel physical pain and emotional shock ?

I think that's just simulated.

-How could the Californian Brotherhood back Maxson's rise to power ? They don't have contact lines. And even if they did, the Californian Brotherhood is on its knees, getting massacrated by the NCR.

The Lost Hills Elders have regained their ability to communicate. It's on the terminal. Bethesda has apparently canonized the War with NCR is over or they're no longer on the verge of extinction.

-Why does a faction entirely dedicated to the preservation of technology decides to blow up the Institute of Technology, which is supposed to be their Graal ?

Because Maxson ordered it and he's the Elder. Why did Maxson do it? Because he's a (violently bigoted) follower of Elder Lyons teaching. He's also barely out of his teenage years and not exactly someone blessed with great experience or wisdom. Danse talks about how Arthur is actually a paper tiger once Maxson pisses him off by disowning him. Danse covered up a lot of Arthur's messes and took care of problems he was ill-equipped to do.

-How come the Outcasts don't immediately shoot Maxson for high treason at this point ? They already waged a civil war for years for the same reason, and they only calmed their tits because they thought that Maxson was a fundementalist. Aka, a protector of technology.

Because Maxson is in charge according to the Council of Elders. You could actually justify why Maxson has the Sole Survivor do it, though, because that means he doesn't have to worry about them turning against him over it. Also, the Outcasts have been under Maxson for almost ten years now and the majority of BOS are probably recruits now.

As for nuking them? I suspect it's because the Institute is a lot harder a target than Maxson initially believed and they've suffered heavy losses (all the Vertibirds getting shot down by Super mutants and raiders). This is just speculation, though, and everything indicates Maxson just hates Synths THAT much.

-Why is the Synth uprising even an issue ? They are tools. Tools can be desactivated, if malfunctioning.

Maxson grew up in the Capital Wasteland where nonhumans created by renegade technology made it hell. He talks about his disgust and Danse explains the Singularity concept to the SS which probably came from Maxson since I doubt Danse had much experience with robotic theory in Rivet City.

-Why can a Ghoul suddenly survive centuries without food or water, when all previous titles clearly established that they need to eat and drink ?

These ghouls seem to go into hibernation. You could also argue they actually feed on radiation. Why ghouls rise up in places they've apparently been asleep since the Great War in. Feeding on radiation is an asspull, though, even if I like ghouls living near the place they 'died.' I think they still need to eat.

-Why can feral ghouls avoid bullets and charge ? They are rotting corpses, not anime characters.

Radiation man! It's....I DON'T KNOW!

-Why does Piper leave her family and business exposed to a psychopath (who, according to her, is a Synth, aka a dangerous creature) who just tried to kill her, and then, threatened a child ?

Piper is actually the biggest danger to her sister in that everyone hates her in Diamond City and they've actually tried to kick her out. She's also a self-admitted terrible guardian who is interested in exploring the Wasteland more than looking out for her kid sister--which she hates about herself.

-Why do robots have a moral compass, a personality, and heck, even a soul ? Robots with personalities require building sized CPUs or a human brain. A cheap butler robot is not a building sized CPU.

Well, ZAX computers are godlike intelligences able to do and see things beyond human capacity. Mister Gusty types and Codsworth are just capable of simulating the human brain. Even then, we clearly see they have limitations on their personalities and memories. Codsworth has been sticking around the same location for literally centuries because his programming doesn't let him do anything else.

-Why does the game asks us "do robots have souls ?" before immediately giving a definitive answer ? As far as I'm concerned, Siri may be nice, but she doesn't have a soul. She's a tool, nothing more.

Tim Cain says that the robots and science fiction is based on Forbidden Planet in Fallout so intelligent machines have always been a part of the setting.

-Why does the Institute considers Shaun's DNA as pure, considering that he was exposed to a dirty bomb as a baby ? His DNA is the very antithesis of pure, because Gamma Rays' effects on the DNA are immediate.

Given they didn't go blind looking at it and it didn't affect anything beyond the Glowing Sea, this particular bomb appears to have been the normal kind. Of course, this bomb is literally on the other side of fucking Massachusetts so there's no actual way that they should seen it.

I did a rough calculation and the bomb in the Glowing Sea is (I kid you not) 3,000 miles away from Sanctuary Hills.

The safe radius from a nuclear bomb's edge is 13 miles away.

-Why not a single Synth was captured and tortured to give the Institute's secrets ? Despite what Nick says, Synths can remember the Institute very well.

The discovery Synth infiltrators exist is actually pretty recent when one of them went rogue and murdered a bunch of people. The Railroad has always known and they know everything about the Institute. They just didn't want the public to know because, well, they didn't want a panic as we saw happened when Piper reported it.

-How "cleaning the body from chems" could possibly cure a junkie ? If this was this easy, 3 days in a sauna would "cure" every addict.

Probably the same way getting shot in the head doesn't necessarily need more than a stimpack.

-Why is the Railroad still alive, considering that there is a red line leading to their HQ, whose password is "railroad" ?

It's a rallying point after their actual headquarters was destroyed. The Institute and Brotherhood eventually does track them down but we're told they move around a lot.

-What's the outcome Vault Tek expected from freezing people, considering that their role is supposed to be "study the social aspects of a community" ?

If we go with Van Buren as canon, and why would we not, then Vault-Tec was trying to figure out what proper ways to do space travel. Freezing people is almost ridiculously sane for a long-term space colonization vessel. So much so its hard to see Vault-Tec actually doing it.

-Why does hiring a mercenary for life, with no question asked, costs 5 bottles of soda ?

MacCready is really just trying to get himself a job away from the Gunners wrath.

-Why on earth does a peaceful lawyer turn into a killer ?

People shooting at her? Husband murdered? Baby kidnapped?

-Why don't Ghouls spend their days in the memory den ? They litteraly can revive the pre war era, when they were young, human, accepted and had a future.

Why don't we play Fallout 24-7?

-Why isn't Cait tied up in a Brotherhood's interrogation room ? She knows the situation in the outside world. Such information is more than valuable. By the way, why is the lone survivor a sociopath ? He has every reason to ask Cait about the world's situation, yet, he doesn't care if billions have survived or not.

???0

-Why can I discuss an order from a high elder and not get shot for disobeying an order in active duty ? Why can't we shoot Preston when he does the same ? On the same subect, why can I bring a ghoul, an Institute Killer, two synths and a super mutant under the nose of an high elder, and not get shot for intelligence with the enemy ?

Maxson is a teenager despite the way he styles his hair and you're a Vault-dwelling badass. All indications are Maxson is giving you a ridiculous amount of slack, even in-universe. You could come up with many reasons in-universe if you want but it's probably just him sensing your protagonist-nature. The brotherhood does insult you for bringing the creatures you have but trusts you to be taking care of it.

-Why doesn't Maxson follow the chain that binds, aka, the Brotherhood's holy codex ?

Bloodline, the fact he has an entire Commonwealth under his direct control, he's a compromise candidate, and he is on the other side of the country. Technically, recruiting outsiders is not against the code as Roger Maxson points out, it's just traditionally not done.

-If Gunners are mercenaries, who pays them, and why ?

I suspect they are paid by settlements for protection.

-Why isn't Curie the story's hero, considering that she can cure every single disease ? She is litteraly the most important person in the world, at this point. Getting her in danger is more than criminally insane, it's actually some Mufti Husseini level of evil.

I imagine that information would have been useful before 200 years of FEV mutation.

 

[Hassknecht]

Tim Cain says that the robots and science fiction is based on Forbidden Planet in Fallout so intelligent machines have always been a part of the setting.

That's a bit of a misunderstanding. The robot in Forbidden Planet was not intelligent. What Tim Cain meant was that robots were programmed with responses to make them seem intelligent, but they were not actually intelligent. Just well programmed. In Fallout, actually intelligent machines still fill rooms with highly advanced vacuum tubes.

 

[CT Phipps]

That's a bit of a misunderstanding. The robot in Forbidden Planet was not intelligent. What Tim Cain meant was that robots were programmed with responses to make them seem intelligent, but they were not actually intelligent. Just well programmed. In Fallout, actually intelligent machines still fill rooms with highly advanced vacuum tubes.

True, though the idea of machines spontaneously gaining sentience which weren't supposed to is actually a real-life speculation of some scientists with sufficiently complicated programs running simultaneously. In Codsworth or Curie's case, they might actually have done so.

Or they're not intelligent, just programmed like Siri.

 

[Hassknecht]

True, though the idea of machines spontaneously gaining sentience which weren't supposed to is actually a real-life speculation of some scientists with sufficiently complicated programs running simultaneously. In Codsworth or Curie's case, they might actually have done so.

Or they're not intelligent, just programmed like Siri.

They were supposed to be programmed like Siri. But thanks to Bethescanon every robot is now possibly sentient, even pre-war combat robots who are now "all woman".

 

[CT Phipps]

They were supposed to be programmed like Siri. But thanks to Bethescanon every robot is now possibly sentient, even pre-war combat robots who are now "all woman".

You don't think it's an interesting idea for machines who have been active for 200 years to become more human?

 

[a721402]

You don't think it's an interesting idea for machines who have been active for 200 years to become more human?

Without actually human-level of learn program inside the machine code, it's both unreasonable and unbelievable, and that's not how you create a thinking machine character.

 

[CT Phipps]

Without actually human-level of learn program inside the machine code, it's both unreasonable and unbelievable, and that's not how you create a thinking machine character.

To each their own. I find it believable but I understand how some people might not like sentience developing via malfunction A.I.

 

[a721402]

To each their own. I find it believable but I understand how some people might not like sentience developing via malfunction A.I.

Without actually intelligence learning code inside the machine, the machine will not become more human just because 200 years passed.
And let's not forget hardware will not last forever, the more intelligent the machine it is, the more expensive and complex hardware it need to replace regularly, stay active over 200 years without regularly maintain is hardly believable already, to become more human in that kind of condition is already surpass the level of hobo drunk talk.

 

[Crossfire]

You don't think it's an interesting idea for machines who have been active for 200 years to become more human?

My cellphone isn't going to develop sentience if I leave it long enough. That's not interesting, it's just stupid.

 

[CT Phipps]

Without actually intelligence learning code inside the machine, the machine will not become more human just because 200 years passed.

If the machine is supposed to be capable of independent interaction, it needs some form of A.I.

And let's not forget hardware will not last forever, the more intelligent the machine it is, the more expensive and complex hardware it need to replace regularly, stay active over 200 years without regularly maintain is hardly believable already, to become more human in that kind of condition is already surpass the level of hobo drunk talk.

Bluntly, "After the End" technology still functioning is a part of Fallout. Much like steel cars vs. the crappy ones produced today, they built this tech to last. But yes, I'm not actually saying it work in reality but we're dealing with an alternate history which is fifty years ahead of us and developed along different lines.

 

[Hassknecht]

You don't think it's an interesting idea for machines who have been active for 200 years to become more human?

It's a very interesting idea. But there's hardware limitations. Your computer won't suddenly become smarter when it gets older, it actually gets worse. In the world of Fallout it would be even more severe, since most computers are still based on (highly advanced and integrated) vacuum tubes, which are notoriously finicky.
There's a fundamental difference between software capable of learning and changing and fixed, programmed responses.
And while it is a very interesting thought (and fundamenal to some of my favourite SciFi novels), it is also fundamentally against the core principles of Fallout technology. And no, robots were not made for independent interaction. They had fixed responses and would give an error if they didn't understand you. Only computers the size of ZAX could actually "think". It's fundamental to how the world of Fallout diverged from our own: They have super advanced nuclear technology, but only just developed the transistor.

/edit:

If the machine is supposed to be capable of independent interaction, it needs some form of A.I.



Bluntly, "After the End" technology still functioning is a part of Fallout. Much like steel cars vs. the crappy ones produced today, they built this tech to last. But yes, I'm not actually saying it work in reality but we're dealing with an alternate history which is fifty years ahead of us and developed along different lines.

Fallout was all about stuff not working at all anymore, with high technology being somewhat mythical.

 

[CT Phipps]

My cellphone isn't going to develop sentience if I leave it long enough. That's not interesting, it's just stupid.

It happens all the time in Star Trek. Also, it leads to this.

And while it is a very interesting thought (and fundamenal to some of my favourite SciFi novels), it is also fundamentally against the core principles of Fallout technology. And no, robots were not made for independent interaction. They had fixed responses and would give an error if they didn't understand you. Only computers the size of ZAX could actually "think". It's fundamental to how the world of Fallout diverged from our own: They have super advanced nuclear technology, but only just developed the transistor.

Yeah, you're probably right, it's a retcon which changes the nature of the Mister Handy's as Codsworth and Curie act like 3rd Generation Synths are supposed to act. Also, John Henry Eden is the person who spontaneously developed sentience and that was due to having all the information of a dozen Presidents mold into a single central consciousness.

Still, I'm willing to forgive it because of both bots being so adorably fun.

I don't care what the Silver Shroud people at Hubris comics thinks, I love my English Butler.

BTW, it's weird as Codsworth and Curie act like no other droid in-universe. Captain Ironsides and those two are contrasted very much against the Japanese speaking Protectron which has no ability to think for itself which is contrasted against Benjamen Button. It's very inconsistently applied and I suppose just the Rule of Cool.

 

[mithrap]

Thanks, it's good to be here. Nice to meet you mithrap.

And it's good to meet you too!

Bethesda's portrayal smacks of re-writes as we have a comically evil Institute (releasing Super Mutants they've created) and we have a laid back Institute that just wants to be left alone. It actually does tie into Shaun's statement they need the Sole Survivor more than he needs them because as scientists, they've devoted massive amounts of resources to making artificial gorillas as well as Pinocchio/Synth Shaun over anything actually productive. They're basically a more serious version of the Big Empty combined with Vault City.
Which isn't an unreasonable characterization but it's a pretty boring one.

I want to see the dev meeting, when someone had the brillant idea : "hey, we've had Caesar's Legion, Vipers, the Master's Unity, Ulysses and the Enclave, now. I propose that we introduce a new kind of antagonist. One that is defined by its laziness, haughtiness, isolation, incompetence and improductivity. What do you think ?" because I want this guy as a motivational speaker. Guy has to be super charismatic if he/she can convince to greenlight such ideas.

If you mean the Ghoul Boy, I think the Gunner was underbidding you.

Yeah, him. Metzger was underbidding too, but the amount still seemed "plausible", considering how much he paid each slaver for a raid and still made a profit. Underbidding is a thing, but the whole idea is to make it sound reasonsable. Even if the sole survivor doesn't know a thing about slavery (neither does the player at this point, considering that the devs don't bother to tell us if slavery is legal or not in the commonwealth. Guess the Loverslab will "fix" that for everyone, as a revenge for ZAZ's assets being stolen in the last DLC. It's gonna be dirty.), he still must know that an immortal slave with no need for food or water probably costs a little more than 5 bottles of water. If he doesn't, he's an idiot, and playing a dumbass is only fun when all the dialogs are rewritten in consequence

The Commonwealth is an agrarian state with lots of scavenging as we see with Bunker Hill. They have an organized caravaning system so they have basically the Hub situation ala Fallout 1. So, they're far from NCR but better than the Capital Wasteland. Presumably, people do a lot of scavenging and by all the work benches, also scrapping.

Yes but not really. Fallout 1's Hub has private firms with shareholders, competitors, employees, a bank which backs currency on a local resource, an organized agricultural system and clear, defined trade roads. And that was a century before Fallout 3/4. None of that seems to be the case in the commonwealth.
Realistically (aka, as Fallout is supposed to be), scavenging could work as a local economy for a little town next to an old factory (like Novac), but not for a whole country. People would stop scavenging in less than a decade after the apocalypse, because we know how to rebuild civilization. In fact, it's what humanity is the best at.

There were pirates in Julius Caesar's time and pirates today. Theft and murder will never go out of style. Also, there's actual communities this time around for Raiders to walk up to and demand caps or food stuffs for. These raiders also don't appear to be cannibals even if they do attack on sight.

Yes, because there was a developped civilization with established trade roads to raid, and a lot of war trophies being carried on the mediterranean sea. Which isn't the case in Fallout 4. If the commonwealth was recently plagued by a virus, or made business with Ronto or Pittsburgh, then I would be alright with raiders on the road. But as it turns out, these guys don't raid for money, they raid for survival. But why are they still "surviving" two hundred years after the bombs fell, that's a mystery.

Well, Super Mutants have always believed in their superiority to humans. However, it should be noted these Super Mutants were never educated by the Master in the Unity. They're just a bunch of horribly experimented on and deformed humans dumped in the middle of nowhere. I can understand why they're aggressive and hateful to the race that spawned them.

If this is resentment towards the Institute, then, they know about the Institute. Which would make no sense, considering that the commonwealth would just have to interrogate a specimen for gathering all the required intel. We could blame the isolation and everything, but the thing is : if you wait too long, Virgil will turn "feral", stupid and attack you on sight. So, it's not a social element that pushes them to hostility, it's the FEV.
But why ? The FEV doesn't turn people feral for no reason. And at this point, we realize that the devs simply didn't think of a good reason for the antagonists' hostility, despite having seven years of pre production.

If we buy the Institute's version of events, the Commonwealth's independent settlements don't like one another. However, after 100 years, the fact is the Institute has been actively sewing discord and paranoia throughout the region. They've destroyed whole settlements which were the size of Diamond City too.

Which would mean that the Commonwealth has been under a Casus Belli for a whole century, and yet, didn't do a thing to act against their enemy. Which, also, makes no sense.
If a whole country is held hostage like this, everyone around would hear about it at some point. Ronto, Pittsburgh, the Brotherhood of steel before they would even dedicate their entire forces for protecting a DJ. In other words, it makes no sense, because there are three powerful factions which would have intervened long ago.

There's also radiation storms from the Glowing Sea so travel is probably dangerous for non-leveled citizens.

About that, don't you think it's a bit strange that the minutemen take over Sanctuary, but you cannot tell them about Vault 111 just a minute away ? Safest place for them, considering that if they stay here, at some point, they'll get irradiated.

I don't think anyone with a smattering of Pre-War knowledge thinks the Institute ISN'T the Commonwealth Institute of Technology or its descendants. I'm sure there's been plenty of people who have gone there to investigate but there's no secret tunnel down to the Institute or Synth factories or community. It's for all intents and purposes an empty series of buildings.

If the whole country is held hostage, and has been for a whole century, it's way beyond suspension of disbelief that nobody tried to dig their way to the underground. If ISIS was on American land, called itself "the caliphate of New York sewers" and buried themselves "Somewhere!", how long would it takes for us to dig through New York tunnels to take them out ? A week, a month ?

3rd Generation Synths are nearly identical to humans and Death Claws attack Curie and Danse. It's also a place where the Institute has no spies or replacements.

It's a good thing that the Institute has hundreds of gen2 synths capable of spawning everywhere, then. There's nothing to eat on them, unlike the gen3 which are basically humans, but "made" instead of "born".

It's very probable he thinks he can hide from them better there and take 1st and 2nd generation Synths on. Remember, he's living in a literal cave in the middle of nowhere.

And does frequent business with the only single settlement inside, and they give his location away if you ask them. All you'd need to do is spy on them for a few days to see Virgil spawning and leading you to his hideout. Worst hiding spot ever.

Bunker Hill, unlike the Capital Wasteland, actually can serve as a medium center for trade. Ditto Diamond City. As for why caps, why not caps? Indeed, they may have started being used in the Commonwealth and traveled up and down the East Coast.

Because there's no resource to back them on, and nobody to back them. Should the commonwealth start to make business with outside factions, caps would prevent any kind of trade, because there would be no exchange value. Unlike in the west, where it's backed by water merchants, a federal bank, and on the price of water, which is a rare and valuable commodity.

It's been 200 years and they're Alpha Predators. Humans have literally walked from coast to coast in far less time.

When we had a valid reason to do so, and always in environments adapted to our needs. There's a reason why we never established a civilization in the south pole, despite all its resources.

For an RL example, Plains Indian culture was built around the taming of the horse in the 19th century with them holding a sacred and important place in their culture. Horses didn't exist in North America until the Spainards had brought them to Mexico and many escaped into the Wild.

Sure thing, but the natives weren't a civilization on the birth, trying to find a place to settle or an identity to acquire, since they were civilized and developped centuries before the arrival of the Europeans. The Iroquois constitution was a thing that inspired the founding fathers, trade roads existed between the salt lake and Mexico centuries and west of Saint Louis, there was a capital bigger than London etc.

The Lost Hills Elders have regained their ability to communicate. It's on the terminal. Bethesda has apparently canonized the War with NCR is over or they're no longer on the verge of extinction.

Which puts two huge problems on the table:
1 - if the Californian brotherhood was able to contact the east, they would have been able to contact the midwest brotherhood. And if they did, nothing that happened in Bethesda's titles could have happened.
2 - If they survived and are still able to operate, then it means that they defeated the NCR. Which is simply impossible, considering their situation. The only way that would be possible is a canon Legion victory over the NCR forces. I don't think that Bethesda thought about the implications of a surviving Californian chapter.

Because Maxson ordered it and he's the Elder. Why did Maxson do it? Because he's a (violently bigoted) follower of Elder Lyons teaching. He's also barely out of his teenage years and not exactly someone blessed with great experience or wisdom. Danse talks about how Arthur is actually a paper tiger once Maxson pisses him off by disowning him. Danse covered up a lot of Arthur's messes and took care of problems he was ill-equipped to do.

It's a good thing that the chain that binds exists, then, and that the brotherhood isn't a supreme monarchy. High elders have been challenged countless times by their paladins, and they require the approval of the council of elders to do anything. Bypassing these elements would mean that Maxson is not a fundementalist. But if he's not a fundamentalist, then he wouldn't have convinced the outcasts to get back in line. So, there is a problem here.
You describe like he's Percival. Percival is an idiotic brat who actually gets teleported out of existence because he threatens the quest to the graal, but yet, if he happened to find it, he wouldn't melt it just because it was held by heretics. Because that would be more than heresy, that would be the exact antithesis of what he is supposed to "do", no matter what he "is".

These ghouls seem to go into hibernation. You could also argue they actually feed on radiation. Why ghouls rise up in places they've apparently been asleep since the Great War in. Feeding on radiation is an asspull, though, even if I like ghouls living near the place they 'died.' I think they still need to eat.

Which means that these streets of Boston were never habitated for two centuries, which would make no sense.

Radiation man! It's....I DON'T KNOW!

Neither does the script writer, don't worry.

Piper is actually the biggest danger to her sister in that everyone hates her in Diamond City and they've actually tried to kick her out. She's also a self-admitted terrible guardian who is interested in exploring the Wasteland more than looking out for her kid sister--which she hates about herself.

So, her development arc is "I'm a terrible and irresponsable being and it's okay" to "I admit that I'm a terrible and irresponsable being, but I won't change a thing, let's keep going." Hell, Dante has a circle in hell just for her kind of people. No, really.
Actually, I liked Fallout 4 until this point. But seeing Piper shushing a man who just tried to kill her, and just threatened her business/family, a man she believes to be a synth, before going "nah, he won't do a thing, let me follow you for no reason and leave my family behind"... that's beyond illogical, it's pure nonsense.

Well, ZAX computers are godlike intelligences able to do and see things beyond human capacity. Mister Gusty types and Codsworth are just capable of simulating the human brain. Even then, we clearly see they have limitations on their personalities and memories. Codsworth has been sticking around the same location for literally centuries because his programming doesn't let him do anything else.

Yet, he can make moral choices and free judgements on my actions, before deciding to live its own life, by its own rules. That's not what a program can do, that's what an artificial intelligence can do. The thing is, even Enclave scientists don't believe that such a thing even exists, even two centuries after the bombs fell (cf: the tapes in which they say that ED-E cannot have a personality, because robots are tools, not sentient beings).
It's one thing to have a personalizable toaster, it's another thing when the said toaster goes "Hey, I hate you. I leave you now. Have fun without me, I'm gonna live my own life now."

Tim Cain says that the robots and science fiction is based on Forbidden Planet in Fallout so intelligent machines have always been a part of the setting.

There are ZAX machines and artificial intelligences, true, but they are expensive prototypes that require a human brain if they want to roll around. You won't find any single intelligent "robot" in the pre-Bethesda Fallout setting, because domestic appliances are not as advanced as military prototypes, for obvious reasons.

Given they didn't go blind looking at it and it didn't affect anything beyond the Glowing Sea, this particular bomb appears to have been the normal kind. Of course, this bomb is literally on the other side of fucking Massachusetts so there's no actual way that they should seen it.

The "don't go blind while looking at it" is a stupid, yet standard trope in fiction, I can go past that. The thing is, if a normal bomb could create something like the glowing sea, then the Mojave Desert, Tahiti and Japan would be hellish wastelands as we speak. They aren't, because regular atomic bombs are not "that" dirty.

I did a rough calculation and the bomb in the Glowing Sea is (I kid you not) 3,000 miles away from Sanctuary Hills.

You probably added a few zeroes by accident ^^ that's 1,000 miles :

multiply this by three, and you got your 3,000 miles. the entire Europe covered. Around 30 capitals and about hundreds of thousands of towns, with about 750 million citizen. Hardly comparable to the bomb that hits the south of Boston.

The safe radius from a nuclear bomb's edge is 13 miles away.

Depends on the bomb. I'm pretty sure than 13 miles from the Tsar bomba would leave you burned, irradiated, blind, deaf and dead. And more vaguely, wherever is too far to hear the sound, see the light and be blasted by the deflagration. Thing is, Shaun hears the sound, sees the light and gets the shockwave. Which means that at this point, he's already bathing in gamma rays. Which are responsible for the DNA mutations.

The discovery Synth infiltrators exist is actually pretty recent when one of them went rogue and murdered a bunch of people.

That was half a century before the events of Fallout 4.

The Railroad has always known and they know everything about the Institute. They just didn't want the public to know because, well, they didn't want a panic as we saw happened when Piper reported it.

Then, why did they wait a century before attacking them ? They have gauss rifles, and they could easily gain the support of everyone with a little effort. The Institute would never stand a chance.
Remember Zimmer from Fallout 3 ? Not exactly the definition of a secret agent. He boasts about the Institute, Synth infiltrators and human replicants under the nose of the whole city, including BoS operatives and security forces.

Probably the same way getting shot in the head doesn't necessarily need more than a stimpack.

Hm. Point taken. It's still pretty idiotic though. There aren't many titles in which addiction is treated in a decent, realistic way. Bethesda is clearly not the only guilty of this.

It's a rallying point after their actual headquarters was destroyed. The Institute and Brotherhood eventually does track them down but we're told they move around a lot.

Except when they don't. Who would be stupid enough to make the rendez vous point at their current HQ ?

If we go with Van Buren as canon, and why would we not, then Vault-Tec was trying to figure out what proper ways to do space travel. Freezing people is almost ridiculously sane for a long-term space colonization vessel. So much so its hard to see Vault-Tec actually doing it.

Van Buren is not canon, quite unfortunately might I add. But it would contradict too many elements of New Vegas.

MacCready is really just trying to get himself a job away from the Gunners wrath.

Five bottles of soda for a lifelong contract, no question asked, is a suitable job for a mercenary then

People shooting at her? Husband murdered? Baby kidnapped?

There's a great example of a title doing it right : the 2013's Tomb Raider reboot. You do kill hundreds of people, but listen to Lara at the beginning. As you shoot your way, she -begs- them to leave her alone, because if not, she'd be forced to defend herself. And afterwards, she openly tries to convince herself that "she had no choice". It takes 2 thirds of the game before she finally decides to turn around and openly attack them while screaming "That's right! Run, you bastards! I'm coming for you all!". It took an awful lot of traumatic events before she turns berzerk. That's way, way more coherent than the way it's treated in Fallout 4, in which loosing a family instantly turns a peaceful lawyer into Sarah Connor.

Maxson is a teenager despite the way he styles his hair and you're a Vault-dwelling badass. All indications are Maxson is giving you a ridiculous amount of slack, even in-universe. You could come up with many reasons in-universe if you want but it's probably just him sensing your protagonist-nature. The brotherhood does insult you for bringing the creatures you have but trusts you to be taking care of it.

There's a difference between cutting some slack to an inferior ranked rookie and let him roll around the high elder with an actual, self confessed Institute's courser.

Bloodline

Which would prevent him from rallying the outcasts. They are fundamentalists. They don't care about bloodline. They care about tradition.

I suspect they are paid by settlements for protection.

Which settlements ? None is protected by the gunners. If they were, the Minutemen would have zero reason to reform, considering that the commonwealth would be a safe place.

I imagine that information would have been useful before 200 years of FEV mutation.

Even during Fallout 4's timeline. People still get sick, everywhere. Curie would be a messiah. Entire factions would clash to get her.