Examples of Bad Writing in Fallout 4 [Spoilers]

Prone Squanderer said:
*cringes* Joke or not it's still stupid.
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I dunno, if you have some balls as a storyteller, that'd be a pretty damn good storyline. You have to end up killing Nick Valentine at the end of the story as part of your quest to get back your son.

Albeit, I was one of those people who wanted an option to spare Kellog.

Certainly, killing Nick would have DRAMA.

Double points if you can only save Nick if you've sided with the Institute.
 
CT Phipps said:
I dunno, if you have some balls as a storyteller, that'd be a pretty damn good storyline. You have to end up killing Nick Valentine at the end of the story as part of your quest to get back your son.

Albeit, I was one of those people who wanted an option to spare Kellog.

Certainly, killing Nick would have DRAMA.

Double points if you can only save Nick if you've sided with the Institute.
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It might work in another franchise, but I don't think it would in Fallout. Putting someone's brain into a robot is one thing, having consciousness somehow transferred from a lump of flesh into a machine is another.

Being able to talk down Kellogg would have been a nice option, but he shot our shallow character spouse so we must kill him.
 
Crni Vuk said:
Drama for the sake of drama is stupid drama though.
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Uh, you've just said that fiction is stupid as a whole. All drama exists in fiction for it's own sake. What ELSE would it exist for? It's there so audiences can enjoy it. It's not like it provides immunity to diseases. It's for entertainment value.

Prone Squanderer said:
It might work in another franchise, but I don't think it would in Fallout. Putting someone's brain into a robot is one thing, having consciousness somehow transferred from a lump of flesh into a machine is another.

Being able to talk down Kellogg would have been a nice option, but he shot our shallow character spouse so we must kill him.
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There's a lot of places which Fallout 4 could have taken risks or actually written something valuable. I was looking forward to having the Spouse as a Companion because that's something I've never seen before in video games.

You could dismiss her, keep her, or break up and stay allies.

Instead, we got a literal case of: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge

Killed then Frozen.
 
Steve the Enclave grunt said:
Yeah, but Crapthesda allowed to talk down the Military leader who killed our shallow father... God damned Beth!
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Actually our shallow father killed himself...which was pointless given the purifier wasn't working. In fact the only person Autumn kills himself is Janice and she did bugger all.

Still, it is funny how a man who is responsible for so many deaths across the Wasteland can be let go, yet a guy who shoots one person has to be killed no matter what.
 
Prone Squanderer said:
Actually our shallow father killed himself...which was pointless given the purifier wasn't working. In fact the only person Autumn kills himself is Janice and she did bugger all.

Still, it is funny how a man who is responsible for so many deaths across the Wasteland can be let go, yet a guy who shoots one person has to be killed no matter what.
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There's a schizophrenic treatment of the Institute overall. No one can actually explain what they're doing or why.

Kellog massacred that colony for no good damn reason.
Father released the Super mutants up on the surface for no damn good reason.
The Institute may or may not have prevented the creation of Commonwealth NCR
They're going to murder the guy they replaced to study plants and his family

Then you have them cheering about protecting the Commonwealthers above from the EVIL Synth.

Basically Villain Writing 101:

1. A villain will think he's the hero and justified in his actions.

2. A villain should be able to explain to you in one paragraph why he does the things he does. It doesn't have to be COMPLEX, "I kill people for money because it pays good" but it must be CONSISTENT and understandable.

Dick Richardson killing all of humanity so only he and his Chosen Few live is crazy but it's consistent and understandable.
Ditto the Master.

Why does Father fuck with the Surfacers?
 
Speaking of Institute and Super Mutants, how long have they been making them? The minutemen were created as a respone to the Super Mutant threat in 2180. But from Vergil's tapes it seems that this scientific endavour is relatively current.
 
I'd honestly say the worst faction for Fallout 4 was The Railroad for how poor and simply written it was. The BoS were hoarding technology and cleansing the Commonwealth. The Institute was creating technology. The Minutemen were re-building the Commonwealth. All three of these had motives and agendas exclusive in their own way and weren't dependent on one another but came at odds.

The Railroad was completely dependent on The Institute existing...and then what? No more Synths being created they would soon not have any purpose at all. They were way too much of a simple faction.
 
Steve the Enclave grunt said:
Speaking of Institute and Super Mutants, how long have they been making them? The minutemen were created as a respone to the Super Mutant threat in 2180. But from Vergil's tapes it seems that this scientific endavour is relatively current.
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I understand the original idea was the Super Mutants were supposed to be ones from the Capital Wasteland who fled after the BOS took over and spread across the East Coast. They would have their own samples of FEV (dwindling as they may be) and could explain any future outbreaks.

Alas no.
Gay Tony said:
I'd honestly say the worst faction for Fallout 4 was The Railroad for how poor and simply written it was. The BoS were hoarding technology and cleansing the Commonwealth. The Institute was creating technology. The Minutemen were re-building the Commonwealth. All three of these had motives and agendas exclusive in their own way and weren't dependent on one another but came at odds.

The Railroad was completely dependent on The Institute existing...and then what? No more Synths being created they would soon not have any purpose at all. They were way too much of a simple faction.
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Albeit, to be fair, the Rebel Alliance is dependent on the Empire existing.

You don't say they've "failed" when the Empire falls.
 
CT Phipps said:
I understand the original idea was the Super Mutants were supposed to be ones from the Capital Wasteland who fled after the BOS took over and spread across the East Coast. They would have their own samples of FEV (dwindling as they may be) and could explain any future outbreaks.

Alas no.


Albeit, to be fair, the Rebel Alliance is dependent on the Empire existing.

You don't say they've "failed" when the Empire falls.
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Yeah but the Rebel Alliance wanted to restore the old republic, not to free mouse droids. The Railroad would make more sense if they were general anti-slavement organisation, with "Free Synths!" division (think of the story ideas!).
 
CT Phipps said:
Uh, you've just said that fiction is stupid as a whole. All drama exists in fiction for it's own sake. What ELSE would it exist for? It's there so audiences can enjoy it. It's not like it provides immunity to diseases. It's for entertainment value.
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No.

That's (again) what you interpret into my words. Sometimes I am asking my self if you do that on purpose ...

Of course in the generic sense of the word 'drama' it is always there to spice up a story, we are not watching documentaries here or attending history classes in school where all you get is a lecture.

But you would agree (hopefully), that there are narrative elements, like how you make the bad guy kicking the puppy to establish how much of a bad guy he is and that there are good ways to make use of this and bad ways.

For example how often people lamet about love stories in action movies. Not because love stories suck, but because they feel forced upon the audience. There is a love story in Matrix, there is a love story in Terminator 1, there is a love story in True Lies. Why doesn't it bother me? Becuse it is pushing the narrative forward, it has a purpose it doesn't feel out of place. Love stories, which are just there, because someone said hey! We need to broaden our movie cuz gurls love romance, bro! Yeah let them hero fuck the chick he just saved and only knows for 10 sec! Great idea!
And than you end up with a love plot somewhere, that makes absolutely zero sense - there are excpetions of course.

So a situation where Nick is possesed by Kelloggs, just so that you have to eventually "force" the player in to a choice between killing or sparing a companion, would be a bad use of 'drama'.
 
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Steve the Enclave grunt said:
Yeah but the Rebel Alliance wanted to restore the old republic, not to free mouse droids. The Railroad would make more sense if they were general anti-slavement organisation, with "Free Synths!" division (think of the story ideas!).
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I think the Railroad was a perfectly valid group but badly written. We needed an explanation for their existence and numbers.

For example, "The Institute used to have a huge faction which believed Synths were people but when the massacre happened at the Commonwealth Republic meeting, they were all exiled to the surface. This community became the Institute's greatest enemy as they vowed to someday free all Synths and reclaim their homeland."

Of course, they'd also need a home city or something akin to that.

Crni Vuk said:
No.

That's (again) what you interpret into my words. Sometimes I am asking my self if you do that on purpose ...

Of course in the generic sense of the word 'drama' it is always there to spice up a story, we are not watching documentaries here or attending history classes in school where all you get is a lecture.

But you would agree (hopefully), that there are good ways to make use of narrative elements and bad ways. Like how often people lamet about love stories in action movies. Not because love stories suck, but because they feel forced upon the audience. There is a love story in matrix, there is a love story in Terminator 1, there is a love story in True Lies. Why doesn't it bother me? Beacuse it is pushing the narrative forward, it has a purpose. Love stories, which are just there, beacuse someone said hey! We need broaden our movie cuz gurls love romance, bro! And than you end up with a love plot somewhere, that makes absolutely zero sense - there are excpetions of course.

So a situaiton where nick is possessed by Kelloggs, just so that you have to eventually "force" the player in to killing a companion, would be a bad use of 'drama'.
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I'm notably one of the people who think love stories should be included in more action games. True Lies is, for example, a love story first and a action movie second. The Matrix is all about what makes us human and love is the answer--weird as that last second bit may be.

The thing is you're talking about bad writing in general while I'm talking about the fact that I think one of the biggest issues in the game is the fact there IS no drama. Drama is a function of consequence, both natural or unexpected, for events and that's too rare in Fallout 4.

One of the interesting quests in Fallout 4 is Covenant and the fact if yiou do the "right thing" you end up having to massacre a settlement.

That's drama as a natural consequence of the storyline. In the case of Kellog and Nick, the fact you hook up and download Kellog's memories into Nick and he's FINE after briefly being possessed isn't drama. It's just consequence free mad science.

Kellog possessing Nick was set-up in the Checov's Gun sense of the word and the gun is never fired. There's no drama and it's an inferior story as a result.

That's just my .02.

You can argue, certainly, it would be a BAD STORY but I think Fallout 4 was lacking in dramatic moments and consequences throughout the game. There's very little like the Witcher 2 where all your decisions have weight, good and bad.

Sorry, didn't mean to twist your words.
 
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A plot device or narrative that feels out of place, doesn't have to be badly written. There are elements, that simply do not fitt, regardless how well they are written like Comedy scene as we know from The Mask thrown in a movie like Dirty Dancing. But this has also someting to do with the tonality of a movie.
But that's not the point with Nick and Kellogg here, beacuse this isn't a question if it fitts. It's simply that it would feel forced and shitty in this situation because there is no proper build up. But that is my opinion.
 
I'm frankly surprised as to why Bethesda or Emil didn't use ghouls as a substitute for Synths in the game.

I mean it seemed they had something set up for ghouls based on the whole Diamond City ghoul policy, that settlement full of ghouls, Hancock, and I think Goodneighbor but was eventually scrapped because Emil saw the Terminator and Bladerunner and thought to himself "omg guissss! androids are so kewl! lets use that instead instead of ghouls!1!".
 
The whole "Are androids people?!?111" trope is so fucking overused at this point. As soon as this became apparent in Fallout 4 I was like "Reaallly? THIS AGAIN???"

It used to be an interesting concept, now it's just the standard shallow white-washed nothingless used whenever people can't think of a real plot.
 
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I love the Androids are people there. However, people forget there's a reason Blade Runner works.

The Replicants are EVIL.

If they were selfless victims, there's not really any moral ambiguity.
 
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