Fireside Chat: Alpha Protocol reception and New Vegas

Person A: "I don't like Fallout 3. It's the worstest game evar!"

Person B: "Well I like Fallout 3. I don't like Arcanum though. It was buggy and unplayable."

Person A: "What!? How dare you badmouth Arcanum! It's.. it's.. It's just not allowed. Okay? You scum! BAN THE TROLL!! BANN!!!!"
 
Kyuu said:
Eyenixon said:
Now if they could only do the same for AAA titles but unfortunately the fight for "exclusives" and advertising is too much an influence.
But the problem here is that they don't, so you have AP which receives these incredibly low scores and a game like Fallout 3 which receives incredibly high scores. AP may need a *lot* of polish and some work on the gameplay mechanics, but Fallout 3 was pretty light on the polish as well, needed a *lot* of work on the gameplay mechanics, and the content (dialogue, story, character-building mechanics, world, etc.) are piss-poor in comparison to a game like AP. In what world does a game like Fallout 3 deserve scores of 10/10 while AP deserves 5/10 or even 2/10?

So, while you may be right that the reviewers are really just doing their job in this instance, it's still not right if they don't explicitly state, "Hey, this time we're being honest in our review so you can't compare the scores we give this game to the scores of other games where we've been heavily influenced by developer advertising, gifts, hype, and the threat of losing access to early previews and review copies of titles from major development studios."

One is better than nothing, the game isn't a victim, it's a piece of shit DVD stuck inside of a box waiting for some poor guy who just wants his 60$ to give him a reasonably well-made experience. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people are going to have that same expectation.
As for what I said about the superfluous details, you people are acting like I said they shouldn't be considered at all. Do you think I'm an idiot? Honestly, it's a great deal a part of the experience but it's not important as getting the mechanics right, it's not as important as balancing the game, it's not as important as creating something easily playable and accessible to the gamer, it's not as important as fluidity and pacing, it's not as important as making a good game and then making a good story within that game.
The point here is that Alpha Protocol's problems are numerous, and they aren't simply slight niggles, the game is buggy, anyone can make that observation, the gunplay doesn't even approach acceptable standards, and as I've said multiple times, the sneaking is more elementary and retarded than the original Metal Gear Solid.

The point here is that Alpha Protocol is gameplay-wise an absolute travesty, when you tell me that I should ignore its flaws to see it's greatness, you're telling me I have to suffer for the large part of the entire time I'll be playing the game, just so I can enjoy some slightly above standard writing and NPC interactions? The choices you can make are a large part of the game, that is true, but they're also a part of the game's mechanics, that's one of the few things they managed to get right. Beyond that all the arguments about art style are irrelevant since Alpha Protocol is generic and to put it lightly, quite hideous. I don't think it deserves a 2/10, but it's still abominable in the slightest sense, I'd give it a 4/10, simply because it's not even average, it's mediocre.

Besides, if I want a long winded RPG with mediocre gameplay I'll go play PS:T again. At least that one had unique art-style.

kyle said:
Whats the deal with trolling PS:T and Arcanum?
Either way, id much rather play a game that has something to it, even if i have to crawl through sewers to avoid game hanging.

I'm not "trolling" anything, I'm making observations that are entirely clear to people that have played those two games, both of them have mediocre combat, both of them are unbalanced, both of them are extraordinarily buggy, and both of them focus on quality narrative with exploration elements while totally trashing out on the rest of the simple mechanics.
I could use Fallout 1 and 2 as examples as well you know, RPGs are almost always buggy, but I don't think that counts as an excuse.
 
Or if you don't like to play at all, then you could play Metal Gear Solid 4. :P

(No offense intended. I thought it was pretty good)

From what I've read, it sounds like AP is worth about $20 (or less). That's about as much as the other games we're all comparing it to are worth at this time (if not less, considering Fallout is about $6 now).

If we were all honest, then we'd admit that we're just sad that we can't get as much enjoyment out of these games as the person/people defending them.

Take Darklands and Arcanum for example. When I first tried Arcanum's demo (way back) I actually got to a large town which.. well my computer couldn't handle it. The game was unbearably laggy indoors or something like that. Later on, I purchased the game at a bargain price, expecting a much better experience. I just couldn't enjoy it. Either the game's engine hadn't aged well or the beginning and/or combat was just awful. At any rate, I never got to enjoy a game that so many others rave over. In Darklands I simply couldn't figure out how to fight, so a large snake (or several) made short work of my noob team.

As always, one man's trash is another man's treasure.. It doesn't mean one of those two people have bad tastes, it just means they have different tastes.
 
Well, patching is much more automatic and faster than the early years of gaming, are the flaws of Alpha Protocol too big to make some quick patches right now?
 
No, it's much like Fallout 3 in that there are things that can be fixed and altered easily to improve the experience but ultimately the main mechanics (shooting, stealth, etc.) are pretty sub-standard.
 
Heh, something like the SomethingAwful's one sentence review?

"If reading an excellent book made you walk in a crouch like some sort of malfunctioning Groucho Marx robot and each page was physically awkward to turn, you'd be as conflicted as I am right now. 8/10"

:D

It doesn't mean one of those two people have bad tastes, it just means they have different tastes.
Or have much better patience. ;) Seriously, as I grow older, I've become much more intolerant of games that are hard to pick up & play, while I've played some games earlier where you had to figure out your way in the controls.
 
I think I've seen some patches for Fallout 3 that turn it into more of an action game with slow-mo, rather than the VATS thing.

As for the stealth system being flawed, are you talking about how you can stand completely still in a dark area and the enemies not notice you even if they walk right by and bump into you?
 
No, I mean that all it is is going into a crouch, crawling around and then using your stealth abilities. Also the AI is so terrible that they'll either spot you because they have incredible psycho-vision or some such, or they become near-sighted.
It's supposed to be one of the more prevalent options in the game but it doesn't act like it, it's simple, simpler than MGS 1 as I said.
 
Wasn't much different in Deus Ex. You crouch around and get behind standing around NPCs, then kill them / knock them out.

In Bloodlines, sneaking 'n stuff was in most cases only good when using invisible spell.

In MGS 1 and 2 (and remake on console-- these are the only three games I've played), is no real sneak at all. You can run behind them all the time and nobody will notice, as long as you don't run on "metal" ground, which makes noise or run into their field of view, etc. Also they follow a strict path, which you have to "learn", in order to successfully knock out one enemy and the next and the next, etc.

I wouldn't call this much deeper as well. It's just a kind of 3d jackstraws game. I am not saying that it's bad, because I've always had a lot fun with the MGS games. But well... it's no rocket science too.
 
The problem with me is that I'm an immense fan of the Thief series and nearly every other stealth game is garbage in comparison.
 
I think it worked better in Oblivion & (even better) in Morrowind because they used the same stealth system, but with magical camouflage you can sneak around even better.

In Oblivion you can't have as many enchantments, and those found on items are always better than what you can make, so camouflage doesn't factor in too well. Still, it was useful enough to take down a good portion of health if you managed to get a sneak shot with a bow. Even better with a poisoned shot.

In Fallout 3 It's difficult to get a sneak attack unless you stand still, wait for them to walk by, and then do a VATS attack. Even then they sometimes spot you just before you hit.. meaning you don't get credit for the sneak hit. >.<

That said, I was expecting a much better game than what we got with Fallout 3. I still got at least 100 hours of enjoyment out of it though, and that's pretty good IMO. I would have enjoyed more customization, like being able to make your own bombs. Fill a box with explosives and whatever shrapnel you prefer, whether it be bottlecaps or pieces of metal you just cut off of an old sign. And then each of those individual pieces have their own physics when the device explodes. Games just haven't come that far yet though... (sorry for derailing)
 
Oof, got a lot of flak for my thoughts on Arcanum :P I tried liking it, I really did. But I felt like I was fighting the game at every step (couldn't stand the UI), and eventually just gave up. Maybe I'll give it another go one of these days.

So to sum up Alpha Protocol, seems like it has great story/characters but terrible gameplay mechanics?
 
For me, AP is actually a combination of a weak shooter with decent RPG elements and a great adventure game.
 
PaladinHeart said:
In Darklands I simply couldn't figure out how to fight, so a large snake (or several) made short work of my noob team.
Darklands is conceptually great and does a lot of big picture things right but the interface (including explanations for how anything works) is utter shit. Also, it's a load jockeying game, encounters with non-humans tend to mean death for a long time. It's an overrated game but it has a lot to teach.

Dario ff said:
Or have much better patience. ;) Seriously, as I grow older, I've become much more intolerant of games that are hard to pick up & play, while I've played some games earlier where you had to figure out your way in the controls.
I'm largely the same way, I have to be motivated to actually wrestle with a game's interface and controls these days but if I want, I can figure out most interfaces and controls. I mean, I pick up games fast due to how long I've played so I kind of feel like if I'm struggling with controls and interface, it must be a bloody nightmare for the average gamer.

Eyenixon said:
The problem with me is that I'm an immense fan of the Thief series and nearly every other stealth game is garbage in comparison.
That's because every other stealth game is a stealth-action hybrid, not pure stealth. I wouldn't say that they are bad, it's just that if you get into a fight, you generally don't instantly die like you do in Thief, you can usually kill the people giving you trouble then run away and hide. Then there are combat oriented games which just throw in stealth for the sake of it then force you to fight their shitty stealth mechanics to unlock something.
 
Thief itself was actually pretty bad toward the end of the game.

"Hey, we realize we had you use stealth throughout most of the game, but now it's a thriller type game! You can't sneak up on demons because, well, you know, they're demons! So you'll just have to evade them (good luck!) or kill them with your crappy weapons."
 
I don't really get the complaints on the stealth mechanism in AP. what would you want to change? I like how you don't have any kind of indicators for how much noice you make or how close you are to being detected. you have to use your brain and be really careful, just as you would sneaking up on someone in real life. with my current character I have very little skill in stealth and I wear combat armor with little noise reduction, and I can't even sneak up on most guards from behind. and that's how it should be. the problem is entirely the AI imo, not how stealth works. but even the AI isn't that bad in this case - unlike many other stealth games, guards don't give up after a couple of seconds. if they kniow you're there, they're on the lookout until you turn off the alarm or wait for a pretty long time. if you make any kind of noise, they know where you are and will come for you.
 
Well, a Stealth mechanism is mostly determined by how the AI reacts to it, so I guess the complains on them are valid.
 
true, true... but then I guess I'll have to take that back - I don't really see a problem with the AI here at all. name one stealth game whith realistic and logical AI. I sure haven't played one, and to be honest this is the closest to that I have come.
 
I suppose Eyenixon will come and mention the Thief series... but meh.

I haven't seen a game with truly realistic stealth mechanics too. I'll hold off my review on the stealth of AP when I get it in some days. And I have a passion for cheesing Bad AI. :D
 
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