Nuka World should have been its own game

BTW,

I apologize for again coming across too strong regarding Caesar's Legion as comparing real-life atrocities to fictional ones has the risk of being disrespectful to the real life ones. I also have been fascinated by the potential of a low-tech tribal society as an alternative for an attempt to rebuild humanity's technological prowess.

While this goes against my inclinations as an academic and believer in science, I also note it may be environmentally appropriate for humanity to revert to a low-tech civilization until the radiation fades away from the planet Earth. Which doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon but that's the nature of the timeline for you. Apparently, the half-life on those Chinese bombs is at least a thousand years.

I also note while I have a low opinion of Caesar's motivations, his plans of uniting the tribals into one single cultural identity by force is quite brilliant and I can't help but wonder if some of his more questionable decisions like throwing out medicine or legalizing cannibalism is a result of his brain tumor rather than simple sadism.

I also admit a certain curiosity to what Denver Colorado would be like and wondering why he needs Vegas versus building his civilization there.
 
CT Phipps said:
BTW,

I apologize for again coming across too strong regarding Caesar's Legion as comparing real-life atrocities to fictional ones has the risk of being disrespectful to the real life ones. I also have been fascinated by the potential of a low-tech tribal society as an alternative for an attempt to rebuild humanity's technological prowess.

While this goes against my inclinations as an academic and believer in science, I also note it may be environmentally appropriate for humanity to revert to a low-tech civilization until the radiation fades away from the planet Earth. Which doesn't seem to be happening anytime soon but that's the nature of the timeline for you. Apparently, the half-life on those Chinese bombs is at least a thousand years.

I also note while I have a low opinion of Caesar's motivations, his plans of uniting the tribals into one single cultural identity by force is quite brilliant and I can't help but wonder if some of his more questionable decisions like throwing out medicine or legalizing cannibalism is a result of his brain tumor rather than simple sadism.

I also admit a certain curiosity to what Denver Colorado would be like and wondering why he needs Vegas versus building his civilization there.
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http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Caesar
Caesar desires two things: a Carthage, and a Rome; by seizing New Vegas, Caesar felt that he would finally be able to elevate his Legion into a legitimate nation by giving it its own "Rome" by destroying the NCR, Caesar's "Carthage" – transforming them from a nomadic army into a true empire; a militaristic, patriarchal, imperialist, autocratic, culturally homogeneous empire whose ruler holds undisputed power - a "Pax Romana" which would prevent humanity from ever fracturing itself again
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This sums up Caesar's need to conquer Vegas.
 
CT Phipps said:
BTW,

I apologize for again coming across too strong regarding Caesar's Legion as comparing real-life atrocities to fictional ones has the risk of being disrespectful to the real life ones.
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No one cares. This ain't reddit boy.

CT Phipps said:
Apparently, the half-life on those Chinese bombs is at least a thousand years.
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Source?

I like you're observation about Caesars tumor but he never said cannabalism was cool to my knowledge so again.... Source?
 
CerberusGate said:
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Caesar

This sums up Caesar's need to conquer Vegas.
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To clarify my point, my confusion is why he needs Vegas when he has Denver. He doesn't need Hoover Dam since he doesn't want his society to have electricity. Is it because the close proximity of NCR?

I like you're observation about Caesars tumor but he never said cannabalism was cool to my knowledge so again.... Source?
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The White Glove Society who Caesar is supporting the return to cannibalism of.
 
CT Phipps said:
To clarify my point, my confusion is why he needs Vegas when he has Denver. He doesn't need Hoover Dam since he doesn't want his society to have electricity. Is it because the close proximity of NCR?



The White Glove Society who Caesar is supporting the return to cannibalism of.
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Because Denver is garbage. Its not a good town. In fact its known as Dogtown because of its insane infestation of rabid dogs.


Source: I actually know my shit

Secondary Source:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Denver
 
CT Phipps said:
To clarify my point, my confusion is why he needs Vegas when he has Denver. He doesn't need Hoover Dam since he doesn't want his society to have electricity. Is it because the close proximity of NCR?
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Taking Vegas would mean that his civilization has defeated the greatest enemy they have faced, a nation equal to theirs thereby validating them. Vegas would be the best symbol of that validity.

And Denver is not that good a city with all the rabid dog packs, as @R.Graves pointed out. He has his own cities like Flagstaff but it's clear he wants Vegas which implies more.

CT Phipps said:
The White Glove Society who Caesar is supporting the return to cannibalism of.
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Do you have a link or quote you can cite?
 
I know I'm replying to some shit that's already been answered/corrected/whatever, but I don't care.

CT Phipps said:
the Vault Dweller's sex obscured in their statue.
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Did you and me see different statues? The Vault Dweller statue is clearly male.
latest

CT Phipps said:
Caesar found a bunch of tribals, declared himself their god, and then turned them loose with a fake culture derived from a textbook.
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Caesar's Legion is a pretty damned typical example of the beginning of an early civilization. Rome wasn't built in a day, don't judge Caesar by the groundwork he's laid but by what rises up from it (though, it's likely the Legion self-destructs after New Vegas, so uh, I guess we'll never see that).
CT Phipps said:
Caesar is uninterested in actually creating civilization
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Did you not listen to a single thing the guy said? All he cares about is making a new Rome, it's literally his life purpose, that's how he explains away all the human right abuses.
CT Phipps said:
Caesar destroyed the local culture of individual tribes in order to instill his artificial culture and religion which emphasizes toxic masculinity, rejection of technology, the inferiority of women, and the delusion that Caesar is the Son of Mars.
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Woah, it almost sounds like the barbaric civilisations that used to rule the world, almost like Caesar based the Legion on those.
CT Phipps said:
There seems to be a weird idea that I can't love to hate Caesar's Legion. They're the best villains in Fallout since the Enclave.
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The problem was that you characterised them as pure evil (like the Enclave, who are totally Fallout Nazis) when they're better described as ultra-pragmatic.
CT Phipps said:
they become tribals rather than Raiders don't they?
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Tribals that raid are still raiders, and considering the fact that they're trying to act like the Mongols, they'll probably continue to raid.
CT Phipps said:
comparing real-life atrocities to fictional ones has the risk of being disrespectful to the real life ones.
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Bah, we're not such virulent assholes that we'd complain about that; compare fictional atrocities to real life ones all you want.
CT Phipps said:
a result of his brain tumor rather than simple sadism.
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More a result of his ideology and pragmatism, from what I remember.
R.Graves said:
but he never said cannibalism was cool to my knowledge so again.... Source?
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He allows the White Gloves to eat people, so long as they support him.
 
Izak said:
I know I'm replying to some shit that's already been answered/corrected/whatever, but I don't care.


Did you and me see different statues? The Vault Dweller statue is clearly male.
latest
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Sorry there, I always thought that was a sexless statue but that was just me not seeing it closely enough. I got the statue much closer in a google image search.

Caesar's Legion is a pretty damned typical example of the beginning of an early civilization. Rome wasn't built in a day, don't judge Caesar by the groundwork he's laid but by what rises up from it (though, it's likely the Legion self-destructs after New Vegas, so uh, I guess we'll never see that).
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My distaste for Caesar's Legion basically boils down to a personal judgement on his anti-science and propaganda-based efforts as well as the gross misogyny of the Legion. Given we see other tribals like the Great Khans with more egalitarian natures, it seems like a policy which he is actively adding and I disliked for. I also was making a judgement about Caesar from a personal standpoint in terms of Joshua Graham's opinion on him and my belief of him as a narcissist. That's entirely unprovable admittedly so I withdraw that assertion as an objective statement of fact.

Woah, it almost sounds like the barbaric civilisations that used to rule the world, almost like Caesar based the Legion on those.
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The confusing fact for me is that the Roman civilization didn't make use of female chattle slavery as a matter of course and I'm honestly confused as to the status of slavery versus citizenship in the Legion. Are there citizens in the Legion prior to Rome or is the Legion itself how the entire society functions sans merchants? Children are supposedly taken from their families and presented to priestesses. Is this a universal practice? The question of whether the Legion is the army of Caesar's Empire OR Caesar's Empire in its entirety and it is an essentially roving Sparta is one which I am curious of.

If the latter, it has no resemblance to Rome and more the Vandals.

The problem was that you characterised them as pure evil (like the Enclave, who are totally Fallout Nazis) when they're better described as ultra-pragmatic.
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I'd argue the pragmatism of a return to Luddite scavenger society versus rebuilding science but that's linked to the above values judgement which is unprovable. Evil is a perspective and the destruction of civilizations, conquest, slavery, and use of child soldiers are nothing new but ones which are strongly condemned by societies. One can make an argument for Caesar's Legion as the otherwise quite decent Raul Tejada does but I'm not entirely sure it's a valid one.

Tribals that raid are still raiders, and considering the fact that they're trying to act like the Mongols, they'll probably continue to raid.
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Agreed on that and withdrawn.

I generally agree with this.



Albeit, I believe Caesar believed NCR and the Legion would influence one another to become a stronger nation no matter who won.
 
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CT Phipps said:
Thanks for the explanation about the city.
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No problem man. You should actually read the link too. Interesting shit.
Van Buren wouldve been cool as hell.

Also I'm well aware I'm being a bit of a cunt but again thats mostly for my own entertainment.
 
I apologize for getting some people confused and my mistaken facts as well as not responding to everything. That was rude behavior for a poster.

This thread has also inspired me to do a sequel to my "Moral Ambiguity of Fallout 4" with articles on Far Harbor and Nuka World.
 
Nuka-world should've been a part of the main game, with Gage and the three raider gangs being an alternative to Preston Garvey and his Minutemen.
CT Phipps said:
Except, that's part of the absurdity. Myron isn't a villain at all save in the moral sense. He's a Companion. It's like if you recruited Colonel Autumn for your missions against the Enclave.
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You're conflating villains with antagonists.
 
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CT Phipps said:
I see the role of the villain as an antagonist one in the literary sense.

But yes, that's quibbling over the details that Myron is a roofing rapist slaving asshole.
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There is a distinction between villains and antagonists. You can have antagonists that aren't villainous and villains that aren't antagonistic. Watch from 00:34 to 04:42 specifically to get my point.

 
Crossfire said:
There is a distinction between villains and antagonists. You can have antagonists that aren't villainous and villains that aren't antagonistic. Watch from 00:34 to 04:42 specifically to get my point.
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Sorry, to be clear, my point is I believe the term "villain" only applies to a person when they are the antagonists in a story. I do not believe it a generic term for bad person but I could be mistaken on that.
 
CT Phipps said:
Sorry, to be clear, my point is I believe the term "villain" only applies to a person when they are the antagonists in a story. I do not believe it a generic term for bad person but I could be mistaken on that.
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That is... a bizarre point to want to make.

Well, I mean, you can make up whatever rules you like. But, you'll be cutting yourself off from a lot of opportunity for nuanced characters by doing that.

Quick side-question: Is English your native language?
 
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