Nuka World should have been its own game

CerberusGate said:
That's actually a point worth debating. Whether the Legion would become more like Rome if they win at Hoover Dam? Whether the Legion would argue over whether to emulate more of Rome or be more pragmatic about it?

The Legion is nuanced enough to bring up such discussion. Nuka World's raiders do not.
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I imagine such has been discussed to death personally. Part of what made Caesar's Legion such effective villains is they actually are a group which was new and not a retread of past material. I hope new games in Fallout respect the past but keep adding to the lore rather than just trotting out the same old same old.
 
@CT Phipps

If you really want a game set in a raider nation there is an ending that for the khans that doesn't contradict any of the faction's victories that says they just bail into Montana and build their own empire.
 
CT Phipps said:
Part of what made Caesar's Legion such effective villains is they actually are a group which was new and not a retread of past material. I hope new games in Fallout respect the past but keep adding to the lore rather than just trotting out the same old same old.
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I'd rather they explore the consequences of these materials. Rather than adding new things for gimmicks, one could add substance to these new things by going deeper into it.

It's more interesting to see what actual competent writers could come up with.
 
R.Graves said:
@CT Phipps

If you really want a game set in a raider nation there is an ending that for the khans that doesn't contradict any of the faction's victories that says they just bail into Montana and build their own empire.
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Eh, then they're tribals rather than Raiders aren't they?

What I liked about the Nuka World culture is they managed to find a successful city like Diamond City and managed to conquer it before finding themselves in an environment which was such a rich source of salvage, caps, and food that they never really had to raid again. However, instead of being content with this, they started to turn against one another and look to expansion.

Gage's story also nicely showed the relationship between Raiders and vassal states. I like the fact the Raiders were in the process of creating their own little protection racket/feudal government at the end of Nuka World and hope they make it the canonical ending.
 
CT Phipps said:
Eh, then they're tribals rather than Raiders aren't they?

What I liked about the Nuka World culture is they managed to find a successful city like Diamond City and managed to conquer it before finding themselves in an environment which was such a rich source of salvage, caps, and food that they never really had to raid again. However, instead of being content with this, they started to turn against one another and look to expansion.

Gage's story also nicely showed the relationship between Raiders and vassal states. I like the fact the Raiders were in the process of creating their own little protection racket/feudal government at the end of Nuka World and hope they make it the canonical ending.
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Actually it was Wyoming.
My mistake.

During the Battle of Hoover Dam, the Great Khans quickly evacuated Red Rock Canyonand headed north and east into the plains of Wyoming. There, they reconnected with theFollowers of the Apocalypseand rebuilt their strength. Bolstered by ancient knowledge of governance, economics, and transportation, they carved a mighty empire out of the ruins of the Northwest.
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... Also everything you just said made no sense. In this whole thread. That's why its difficult to talk about nuka world here. You're just wrong so often.
 
CT Phipps said:
Eh, then they're tribals rather than Raiders aren't they?
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http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Khans
Read up.

CT Phipps said:
It's not gimmicks to me but world-building.

It also rather restricts choice.

Canonical endings have their purpose but I also feel like they kind of walk over player choice.

I admit to having mixed feelings on the subject.
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World building works even without adding new things. It shows how life works in the post-apocalyptic society and depicts the progress that the people has made to recover from such an event. It's all about showing natural progression of events and only making minimal additions to create new sources of conflicts so that the established lore is not contradicted.

Adding things for the sake of adding things bears the risk of harming the creative integrity of the crafted world. Several things done by Bethesda have already contradicted lore (Jet being a pre-War drug, ghoulification is now a transmitted disease, there are apparently superior pre-War Power Armors from the established T-51b, ghouls apparently do not need food and water, aliens are real and may have started the Great War etc.) so I'd rather they firmly establish their setting before adding more gimmicks.
 
... Also everything you just said made no sense. In this whole thread. That's why its difficult to talk about nuka world here. You're just wrong so often.
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Nuka World is an interesting situation for Raiders because it's when they achieve "The Big Score." The Big Score where they become so wealthy and powerful that they no longer have to work but are now immersed in the culture of crime and raiding as a lifestyle. This actually has happened before in previous versions of Fallout with the Fiends as a good example and even the Power Gangers. Acquiring a Vault is security beyond a normal level which other Raider gangs can and yet they never really change their behavior.

Nuka World was a city on par with Diamond City before and a thriving trading post.

Many times more valuable than a Vault.

And yet the Raiders have no ability to capitalize on this until the Sole Survivor becomes the Overboss.

I think there was a lot of potential to develop it.

Sadly, we don't get this.

CerberusGate said:
I'd rather they explore the consequences of these materials. Rather than adding new things for gimmicks, one could add substance to these new things by going deeper into it.

It's more interesting to see what actual competent writers could come up with.
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It's not gimmicks to me but world-building.

It also rather restricts choice.

Canonical endings have their purpose but I also feel like they kind of walk over player choice.

I admit to having mixed feelings on the subject.
 
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CerberusGate said:
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Khans
Read up.
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Sorry, allow me to explain. When the Great Khans left the Mojave after the Sole Survivor gives them the Book on Genghis Khan versus having them ally with NCR (which will betray them) or the Legion (who will betray them), they become tribals rather than Raiders don't they?

I mean, there's a fine line anyway as they're a tribe of Vault-survivor descendants (who are kind of lore breaking as the Khans in Fallout were wiped out with only a single survivor remaking them from refugees) who RAID which makes them tribals AND raiders but if they're in Wyoming wouldn't they be a tribal culture as they're not, well, raiding anymore?

Presumably?

I mean they could still be.

Adding things for the sake of adding things bears the risk of harming the creative integrity of the crafted world. Several things done by Bethesda have already contradicted lore (Jet being a pre-War drug, ghoulification is now a transmitted disease, there are apparently superior pre-War Power Armors from the established T-51b, ghouls apparently do not need food and water, aliens are real and may have started the Great War etc.) so I'd rather they firmly establish their setting before adding more gimmicks.
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Yes, I honestly think these are all poor uses of lore. Though, when has ghoulification been transmittable? I thought it was purely radiation since it was retconned not to be the result of FEV.
 
CT Phipps said:
Sole Survivor
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:facepalm: COURIER!!! How did you mix the two distinct player characters up?! (Sorry for the all-caps btw but that mistake is rather glaring and obvious as @R.Graves puts it).

CT Phipps said:
I mean, there's a fine line anyway as they're a tribe of Vault-survivor descendants (who are kind of lore breaking as the Khans in Fallout were wiped out with only a single survivor remaking them from refugees) who RAID which makes them tribals AND raiders but if they're in Wyoming wouldn't they be a tribal culture as they're not, well, raiding anymore?
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There were survivors from the V-D's massacre. In Fallout 2, you even meet one, Darion (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Darion) so it can be assumed that there were other survivors. They turned into tribals who roam and raid like the Mongols they took inspiration from so they are in fact tribals who can and know how to raid (unlike what Bethesda thinks, raiders are not their own distinct group but merely people resorting to violence to obtain what the need to survive so anyone could be considered a raider even a homicidal low-Karma protagonist).

Besides, that epilogue distinctly mentions how the Khans received guidance from the Followers so they would not devolve into violent tribals again.
 
Gage hints at what I really want, which is the Raider gameTM.



I think Raiders are a major part of Fallout and certainly an excellent part of Bethesda's Fallout. They are, however, underdeveloped as concepts. The role of bandits in the setting is one which asks a lot of questions about the setting and I think it'd be cool to talk about them and what sort of sustainable economy this creates.

There's multiple kinds of Raiders but the very definition of a Raider being a bandit or slaver who happens to operate as a parasite on his fellow human survivors versus actually trying to live in normal life. They have been an iconic part of post-apocalypse lore from the beginning with The Road Warrior being the iconic source of them.

However, you rarely get the option of becoming a Raider in Fallout despite the fact you kill people and take their stuff all the time. Indeed, all of the protagonists tend to be Raiders. They just prey on other bandits.
I'd like to know about the economic, social, and so on conditions which makes raiding a omnipresent part of Wasteland life. Paradise Falls was a great part of Fallout 3 because you really got a sense of the history of the place as a terror in the region. It really made the destruction of the place meaningful.

I was wondering if Nuka World could have been Paradise Falls expanded to its fullest potential. A "raider kingdom" if you will.
 
CerberusGate said:
:facepalm: COURIER!!! How did you mix the two distinct player characters up?! (Sorry for the all-caps btw but that mistake is rather glaring and obvious as @R.Graves puts it).

There were survivors from the V-D's massacre. In Fallout 2, you even meet one, Darion (http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Darion) so it can be assumed that there were other survivors. They turned into tribals who roam and raid like the Mongols they took inspiration from so they are in fact tribals who can and know how to raid (unlike what Bethesda thinks, raiders are not their own distinct group but merely people resorting to violence to obtain what the need to survive so anyone could be considered a raider even a homicidal low-Karma protagonist).

Besides, that epilogue distinctly mentions how the Khans received guidance from the Followers so they would not devolve into violent tribals again.
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Very good points.

Also, apologies for the typo. I'm typing as I watch UFC.
 
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