Nuka World should have been its own game

Crossfire said:
That is... a bizarre point to want to make.

Well, I mean, you can make up whatever rules you like. But, you'll be cutting yourself off from a lot of opportunity for nuanced characters by doing that.

Quick side-question: Is English your native language?
Click to expand...

I have the feeling you think I'm objecting to the concept of an antagonist who isn't evil versus the use of the word villain to describe someone's morality versus their role in a story. I also write novels called "The Supervillainy Saga" which are from the perspective of supervillains.

Basically, I find it diminishes the use of the word "villain" to make characters into them who aren't the central antagonists of a story who aren't evil. I generally prefer antagonists and gray on gray morality with the enemy someone who can articulate their reasoning in a concise single paragraph.

If they can't, they're a bad character.

Is an orc a "villain"? I think that kind of diminishes the word there as he's a henchman. SAURON is a villain. Palpatine is a villain. The Master is not a villain because he's just....well, I hate to say Insane but perhaps a Bad Scientist. John Henry Eden isn't a villain. Are Raiders? I dunno, they're not characterized enough. Caesar is a villain but an understandable one if you accept his utterly ruthless morality but reject his goals. Father Elijah is a villain but a tragic one as he's clearly gone insane due to his obsessions.

Myron is a shitbag but a supporting character so I don't know if I could really add him to the term Villain protagonist.

Villain Supporting Character seems silly.
 
Note: The above is due to an argument over the exact same subject which broke out in a writing class in college where they were trying to teach a bunch of Freshman of the habit of making their antagonists pure evil douchebags.

It just got stuck in my brain.

Crossfire said:
Right, so you get what I'm saying. The subjects of your stories are VILLAINS who are also PROTAGONISTS.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I get what you're saying. You are entirely correct.
 
Last edited:
CT Phipps said:
Yeah, I get what you're saying. You are entirely correct.
Click to expand...

I deleted that post because I noticed you wrote more. Than while I was reading what you wrote, you replied to my deleted post LOL. But, yeah I think we're just arguing semantics at this point.

Basically, I think it is useful to distinguish between villainous characters who are antagonists in the story and villainous characters who are protagonists, deuteragonists or whatever you like. The same goes for the reverse, such as heroic protagonists and antagonists. These concepts aren't mutually exclusive.
 
DR_LaZer said:
Hey, anyone else remember when Fallout was meant to be about what happens AFTER the war, and not before it!? And how it's supposed to be about people trying to rebuild civilization and not
Click to expand...

Fallout 2 was a real downer with its Reno, San Fransisco, Vaults, and Enclave. :)
 
CT Phipps said:
The tragedy of the Sierra Madre was the asshole who built it didn't share his technology with the people but, like the Prince in Masque of the Red Death, sought to protect his awful friends when death was inescapable--weirdly, not a single allusion was made to that. Instead, it was all about Dean Domino's greed.
Click to expand...

Sinclair built the Madre for Vera Keyes, because he thought she loved him. When he found out Domino's plan he turned the Madre into a death trap but couldn't leave it that way after Vera confessed to him. His corpse is found in the Sierra Madre vault because he wanted to undo what he'd done.

Yet even if none of that had transpired they'd have still died due to the Big Mountain's experiments. They all died for nothing.

CT Phipps said:
I seriously sometimes wonder if there's an R-rated Directors' Cut of Fallout which ignores all the fun of the games for some bleak depressing Walking Dead story because the Fallout 1 and 2 *I* remember had Elvis imprints, Lou Tenant, Monty Python jokes, a gigantic cyborg Super Mutant named after a Clint Eastwood character, a meeting with the developers, a forced marriage with a hillbilly pair of siblings, Hubologists, becoming a pornstar, and a fight between Bruce Lee and Lo Pan.

To describe it in a paragraph, Fallout to me is, "A outrageous send up of 1950s science fiction and Cold War fears with lots of choice and roleplaying options."
Click to expand...

Some of those listed are in fact Easter Eggs or jokes. But where's a gigantic cyborg Super Mutant named after Dirty Harry? You mean Harry the Super Mutant? He's not a cyborg, nor is he any reference to Clint Eastwood. Harry is a popular name.

The Lieutenant is a cyborg, but why do you consider him "fun"? To me he's actually more of a threat than the Master himself. Or are you actually refering to Harry calling him "Lou Tenant"?
 
Prone Squanderer said:
Sinclair built the Madre for Vera Keyes, because he thought she loved him. When he found out Domino's plan he turned the Madre into a death trap but couldn't leave it that way after Vera confessed to him. His corpse is found in the Sierra Madre vault because he wanted to undo what he'd done.

Yet even if none of that had transpired they'd have still died due to the Big Mountain's experiments. They all died for nothing.
Click to expand...
Domino... don't know if I like him or I hate him. He sure is smooth and charismatic but what a cunt.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Domino... don't know if I like him or I hate him. He sure is smooth and charismatic but what a cunt.
Click to expand...
That shows he's a good character.

How about William Black, co-leader of the Operators? What are your thoughts on him?

@CT Phipps Nuka World, like the entirety of Fallout 4, is so underdeveloped. It makes me wonder if Bethesda employees just sat around doing nothing for shits and giggles, and a week before the DLC dropped they cobbled together the mess that is Nuka World.
 
CT Phipps said:
To describe it in a sentence, Fallout to me is, "An outrageous send up of 1950s science fiction and Cold War fears with lots of choice and roleplaying options."
Click to expand...
The 'fun' part of Fallout is fluff, entertaining fluff but fluff; the themes relating to rebuilding civilisation and attempting to change the human condition (and in the New Vegas DLCs there's also religion, scientific morality, revenge and greed as main themes and, of course, the more serious side quests generally have their own little themes) are the main course.
Focusing on the Mccarthyist propaganda, wacky 50s science and government conspiracies is exactly the mistake Bethesda made. Fallout should be about the new world, not the old one.
 
Last edited:
Prone Squanderer said:
Some of those listed are in fact Easter Eggs or jokes. But where's a gigantic cyborg Super Mutant named after Dirty Harry? You mean Harry the Super Mutant? He's not a cyborg, nor is he any reference to Clint Eastwood. Harry is a popular name.

The Lieutenant is a cyborg, but why do you consider him "fun"? To me he's actually more of a threat than the Master himself. Or are you actually refering to Harry calling him "Lou Tenant"?
Click to expand...

Frank Horrigan is the name of a Clint Eastwood character. He's a Secret Service agent in "In the Line of Fire."
 
CT Phipps said:
To describe it in a paragraph, Fallout to me is, "A outrageous send up of 1950s science fiction and Cold War fears with lots of choice and roleplaying options."
Click to expand...
Todd?
tANy2D.jpg
 
Eh, I think Fallout 3 was a remake of Fallout 1 and 2. It's basically showing new fans in a new style of gaming what was cool about the original two games.

Sadly, no porn star option.
 
Hobojoe said:
Well they missed the mark multiple times if thats the case!
Click to expand...

It seems kind of obvious in retrospect as you have the Vault Dweller vs. Super Mutants first then the Enclave and John Henry Eden is basically a merger of the Master with Dick Richardson. You can even talk JHE to death in the same way as the Master and force him to destroy his home and forces.

The whole Atomic Bomb Quest in Megaton could also be considered a rewrite of Don Gizmo's conflict with Maguyver. :)

Plus you can't go home again to you Vault.

Almost all of the major story beats from the first two games are inside the game with a focus instead on shooting people in the face as well as being slightly rewritten. They also made the right decision of getting rid of Frank Horrigan.
 
Vergil said:
Todd?
tANy2D.jpg
Click to expand...

Maybe im being melodramatic, but, I view Bethesda's purchase of the Fallout IP as one of the great tragedies of video game history. Just imagine what we could've had by this point, two iterations deep, if Fallout 3 & 4 had been developed by people who understood and respected the setting...

Its like we're living in the fucked up timeline.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top