Redeeming qualities of the Enclave?

[Mutant Screg]

I was disappointed by them in Fallout 3 due to them coming off as generic and cartoonishly evil. When I replayed Fallout 2, however, I realized that they're actually very similar. I don't recall ever NOT wanting to just kill them all. Perhaps I missed something in the game that would help me think twice about their moral stance.

 

[a721402]

 

[naossano]

I don't think you are meant in any point to agree with them. After all, their goal is to kill everyone on the mainland, including yourself, including some of their own tools (Horrigan, the redding miners, their business associates, their Navarro recent *recruit*)

On the other hand, it isn't because you can't agree with them that you can't understand their perspective, AND reflect on what they are supposed to represent in the Fo universe and as real-world equivalents.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Some of the people in the Enclave have redeeming qualities, such as Captain A. Ron Meyers, Dr Henry and the Remnants (though these are former members and we only learn of the Remnants in New Vegas) and even Dr Curling if you convince him that the genocide of the planet is a terrible plan. Sergeant Granite and his squad are possibly some more examples given you can convince them to fight with you against Horrigan.

Really though as an organization the Enclave doesn't have redeeming qualities. They have technology but use it for the wrong reasons, though they aren't exclusive in this. People in the Enclave are better than the Enclave as a whole if that makes sense.

 

[peadar87]

Yeah, the Enclave themselves, and all they stand for, is awful. The people... You can see how easy it would be to convince them that anyone left on the mainland is no longer human and a thread, especially when you show them evidence of Super Mutants, feral ghouls, deathclaws, even raiders and chem junkies. People are tribal, and those would be more than enough for a skilled propagandacist to work with.

 

[CT Phipps]

I was disappointed by them in Fallout 3 due to them coming off as generic and cartoonishly evil. When I replayed Fallout 2, however, I realized that they're actually very similar. I don't recall ever NOT wanting to just kill them all. Perhaps I missed something in the game that would help me think twice about their moral stance.

Yes, theyre a nice repudiation of American military adventurism and exceptionalism. A very vicious and yet effective bit of satire which I felt worked well for the Fallout universe. They drape themselves in the flag and American heroism but the actions they do this in service to are monstrous.

Why I felt they worked very well in Fallout 3 as showing a reclamation of the United States and it's values FROM those who would pervert them.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Yes, theyre a nice repudiation of American military adventurism and exceptionalism. A very vicious and yet effective bit of satire which I felt worked well for the Fallout universe. They drape themselves in the flag and American heroism but the actions they do this in service to are monstrous.

Why I felt they worked very well in Fallout 3 as showing a reclamation of the United States and it's values FROM those who would pervert them.

The only thing I like about F3's Enclave is Colonel Autumn's attempt to use clean water and his troops to provide and protect. It wasn't done well but I like the idea and it could have offered another ending.

 

[CT Phipps]

Anyway, Fallout 2's enclave has a ruthless but effective plan for rebuilding the world. Without the mutants, the world could be saved and civilization rebuilt.

 

[CerberusGate]

Fallout 2's enclave has a ruthless but effective plan for rebuilding the world.

A plan that would depopulate the world and leave it to sheltered, amoral in-breeds? That won't be a world worth living in.

Some of the people in the Enclave are better than that but the organization? They're not redeemable (though that is probably the point). Some of the people in the Enclave are decent or have a shred of morality but that means the redeeming qualities are in the people not the organisation.

 

[Courier]

cartoonishly evil

Eh? It's been awhile since I've played Fallout 3 but I remember them being more sympathetic in that than Fallout 2. Morally gray stuff like that can be a good thing if done correctly, but Bethesda messed it up a bit by making the Enclave's goal come across as a little too decent which made the plot's central conflict really pointless since both factions just wanted to purify the water.

 

[NMLevesque]

The main difference is that in Fo2 they were well written, original, and fully fleshed out. In Fo3 they were lazy caricatures, or maybe a half-assed homage if I'm feeling charitable. Which had the effect of making them more sympathetic in Fo3, albeit at the cost of making them confusing and almost benign. Beyond their random wasteland executions apropos of nothing, they don't really do anything all that wrong except unwittingly become prisoners of a psychotic supercomputer AI that they refuse to shut down b/c Raven Rock is totes a cool base or something.

 

[Mutant Screg]

Eh? It's been awhile since I've played Fallout 3 but I remember them being more sympathetic in that than Fallout 2. Morally gray stuff like that can be a good thing if done correctly, but Bethesda messed it up a bit by making the Enclave's goal come across as a little too decent which made the plot's central conflict really pointless since both factions just wanted to purify the water.

Maybe I remember wrong since it's been years since I've last played FO3, but didn't they plan to infect the water with a mutant-killing serum? Sounds a lot less than decent, if we're talking morality. They wanted to purify the water, sure, but also wanted to "purify" the wasteland by killing off pretty much everything but the Enclave.

 

[NMLevesque]

Maybe I remember wrong since it's been years since I've last played FO3, but didn't they plan to infect the water with a mutant-killing serum? Sounds a lot less than decent, if we're talking morality. They wanted to purify the water, sure, but also wanted to "purify" the wasteland by killing off pretty much everything but the Enclave.

Only Eden wanted to do that. Otherwise Autumn would have taken the vial.

 

[Courier]

Eden wanted to do that, but the game strongly implied that Eden had no real power and that Autumn was the one actually in charge of everything. Autumn wanted to purify the water so he could take control of the wasteland by controlling the water supply. Maybe that sounds like a bad thing, but considering how awful the place was to begin with (there's not even any signs of agriculture), it could only be a step up.

Which makes the entire conflict pointless, because both sides wanted literally the exact same thing and either way you're just getting a secretive military organization in control of the water supply and doing their best to solve the area's mutant problem.

 

[CT Phipps]

A plan that would depopulate the world and leave it to sheltered, amoral in-breeds? That won't be a world worth living in.

Some of the people in the Enclave are better than that but the organization? They're not redeemable (though that is probably the point). Some of the people in the Enclave are decent or have a shred of morality but that means the redeeming qualities are in the people not the organisation.

Simply put, it's a question of goals. The goal is to rebuild the United States without anyone gainsaying that cause. For that, you have to destroy those who don't agree with it.

Maybe some of them would have submitted to the proper authorities but can you take that chance?

I say thee nay.

 

[Risewild]

Simply put, it's a question of goals. The goal is to rebuild the United States without anyone gainsaying that cause. For that, you have to destroy those who don't agree with it.

Maybe some of them would have submitted to the proper authorities but can you take that chance?

I say thee nay.

Why did you posted a Brotherhood of Steel picture in a post about the Enclave?

Maybe I remember wrong since it's been years since I've last played FO3, but didn't they plan to infect the water with a mutant-killing serum? Sounds a lot less than decent, if we're talking morality. They wanted to purify the water, sure, but also wanted to "purify" the wasteland by killing off pretty much everything but the Enclave.

Like others already said, only Eden wants to contaminate the water and that is why it saves you from Autumn. So it tries to convince you to infect the water.
Since Autumn doesn't want that to happen he uses that moment to rebel against Eden and to try and stop you from releasing the FEV into the water (and that is why the Enclave soldiers have a battle against the automated defenses and robots controlled by Eden).

Since Autumn wants clean water I always hated that the game doesn't allow us to choose between the BoS or the Enclave. We already have the choice of using or not the FEV, but we should have also gotten the choice of helping the BoS or the Enclave.
Autumn really wants to implement a good ol' USA model without killing everyone in it, but then he just kills you even if you don't resist and give him the purifier code right away.

 

[CT Phipps]

Why did you posted a Brotherhood of Steel picture in a post about the Enclave?

Please, those disgusting tribals are merely using the American government's property. An offense punishable by death!

Like others already said, only Eden wants to contaminate the water and that is why it saves you from Autumn. So it tries to convince you to infect the water.
Since Autumn doesn't want that to happen he uses that moment to rebel against Eden and to try and stop you from releasing the FEV into the water (and that is why the Enclave soldiers have a battle against the automated defenses and robots controlled by Eden).

Yep, if you tell Autumn you're going to poison the water, he's horrified.

Since Autumn wants clean water I always hated that the game doesn't allow us to choose between the BoS or the Enclave. We already have the choice of using or not the FEV, but we should have also gotten the choice of helping the BoS or the Enclave.
Autumn really wants to implement a good ol' USA model without killing everyone in it, but then he just kills you even if you don't resist and give him the purifier code right away.

While I generally support more interactions, I do like the fact the narrative doesn't bend around you. That Autumn just wants to kill you because you're a pathetic waste of space and he's got no reason to want to recruit you.

 

[Risewild]

While I generally support more interactions, I do like the fact the narrative doesn't bend around you. That Autumn just wants to kill you because you're a pathetic waste of space and he's got no reason to want to recruit you.

I see all the reason to recruit the Lone Wanderer. It made it possible for the purifier to work again, cleaned up plenty of Super Mutant scum, knows the ins and outs and has access of the Citadel (place a few bombs and kabooom, there goes the main enemies of the Enclave), defeats all the Enclave troops by himself while escorting useless scientist, survived Tranquility Lane, etc.
It is all around better than any Enclave grunt. Maybe that's why Autumn kill the Lone Wanderer, because he is jealous and scared that the LW will steal his command from right under his nose.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

Perhaps I missed something in the game that would help me think twice about their moral stance.

The BoS and the Enclave were really two sides of the same coin. The BoS were running around shooting Ghouls and Mutants, regardless of their disposition. When they weren't doing that they were casually spitting on and slapping around Wastelanders.

The only thing that made the Enclave evil was that they shot the occasional wastelander that got in the way. Other than that they behaved in much the same way the BoS did. EDEN was just a moron and Autumn was the guy calling the shots - and Autumn gave somewhat of a shit about working on the Enclave's PR.

It is all around better than any Enclave grunt. Maybe that's why Autumn kill the Lone Wanderer, because he is jealous and scared that the LW will steal his command from right under his nose.

Given the way Bethesda turns you into an Ubermensch faction leader in the span of an hour, Autumn probably peered through the fourth wall and realized he was in hot water.

 

[Prone Squanderer]

Given the way Bethesda turns you into an Ubermensch faction leader in the span of an hour, Autumn probably peered through the fourth wall and realized he was in hot water.

Shit I've just realized...he knew how things would end:

"I can see it now, they'll judge you at the very end. You'll ask that lumbering Super Mutant to go in instead of you and he'll refuse. Then when you DO go in, you'll die, but they will charge you more money so you survive despite there being a Super Mutant in the room. I cannot allow you to get that far, I won't let you waste your hard earned money on scam-worthy DLCs. I must kill you, it's the only humane option!"

Colonel Autumn was doing a Marauder Shields, but we failed. We fucked up and kept going, we killed him at the Purifier. All this time...he was just trying to save us.

*sniff* God bless you Colonel, we shall always remember your valiant efforts.