Tell me about "your" Fallout game

SarcasticGoodGuy said:
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http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Caesar's_Legion#cite_note-BCKD1-1
"Edward Sallow created Caesar's Legion as an imitation of the Roman Legion, but without any of the Roman society that supported the Roman Legion. I've written this before, but there are no optimates, no populares, no plebes, no equestrians, no patricians, no senate, no Rome. There's no right to private property (within the Legion itself). There's no civil law. There aren't even the ceremonial trappings of Roman society. Legates don't receive triumphs following a victory. No one in the Legion retires to a villa in Sedona.

It's essentially a Roman legion with only the very top commander having any connection to the "source" culture, the rest being indoctrinated conscripts from cultures that were honestly less well-developed than anything in Gaul. Gauls are pretty sophisticated compared to the 80+ tribes. Gauls could read the Latin or Greek alphabets (Gallic language, obviously), had extensive permanent settlements, roads, calendars, mines, and a whole load of poo poo that groups like the Blackfoots never had.

What Caesar gave to those tribes was order, discipline, an end to internecine tribal violence (eventually), common language, and a common culture that was not rooted in any of their parent cultures. The price was extreme brutality, an enormous loss of life and individual culture, the complete dissolution of anything resembling a traditional family, and the indoctrination of fascist values.

Caesar's Legion isn't the Roman Empire or the Roman Republic. It isn't even the Roman Legion. It's a slave army with trappings of foreign-conscripted Roman legionaries during the late empire. All military, no civilian, and with none of the supporting civilian culture."
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The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control.

While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave esidents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.

The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).

In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway)
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"Soldiers in Caesar's Legion don't have personal freedom. They "get" to fight and die for Caesar. It's not a volunteer military, though many legionaries are born or raised into it, so they are effectively brainwashed."
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They are slave soldiers. Service is not voluntary, they can't retire, there are no parades and pats on the back for them. They aren't Roman patrician officers who are going to retire to a Tuscan estate when they turn 50. The only power that male legionaries have is to serve Caesar well enough to be promoted to a position of more responsibility. Nothing really comes with that additional responsibility other than increased scrutiny and better equipment (to match the increased danger).
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Based on that
 
In regards to the points about citizens of the Legion fair enough, I was wrong.
Greed said:
Based on that
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So you believe that Neo-Roman soldiers under an egotistical and intelligent leader are boring because they have no freedom?

You've made one point that they're slave soldiers, and because you only follow the quote up with a few words I'll assume that you're saying their narrow minded obedience makes them boring to you. However they have different Decani and Legates which adds variety to their ranks. Look at the differences between the battle at Nelson and the swift victory at Nipton. Just because it's a militaristic society doesn't make it any less interesting to explore. It was handled well in NV, as they were a looming threat- there were few sympathizers, and from their appearance at Nipton you gain a negative image. But then you're greeted by Caesar at the Fort, and some people may change their mind and side with the Legion.

I would like to see them in a future Fallout game, but presented in a different way. Much like how the Mojave BoS chapter were handled. There could be a band of Legion soldiers, blindly fighting in the name of Caesar- despite his demise, to fully explore the effects of the Legion's indoctrination. There could be explorers, searching for a new place to conquer/reorganize. There could be a small side quest, where assassins are tracking down an enemy of the Legion. They don't have to be a huge faction playing into the main plot, and despite the slavery they can still be handled in interesting ways.
 
SarcasticGoodGuy said:
So you believe that Neo-Roman soldiers under an egotistical and intelligent leader are boring because they have no freedom?
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More like they are boring because they have no real free thought, and everyone just serves as an echo chamber for the exact same ideas.

See, the thing that would make something like an NCR collapse interesting to explore is that the NCR is a democracy, and thus, supports, and encourages a wide range of ideas and beliefs. An NCR collapse would result in wildly different factions, from each of the various major possible ideologies.

The Legion on the other hand is basically a hive mind. Everyone in it has been brainwashed into believing the EXACT same things their entire lives, with no real ability to think for themselves. A Legion collapse would just result in 10 kinds of Legion. You would have Lanius' Legion, which are the legion more more brutal. Vulpes' Legion, which is the Legion but more sneaky, Lucius' Legion, which is the Legion but more focused on a smaller elite group of warriors, etc. etc. Its just the same thing with minor variations.

The thing that makes being able to pick a faction interesting is that the faction have vastly different ideals. The NCR, Legion, House, and Yes Man all have largely different means of doing things. Legion vs Legion on the other hand really only leaves you with the option of Legion.

Even outside that premise, talking to people from the NCR will net you a wide range of ideas, cultures, styles, philosophies. While talking to people from the Legion will net you 50 people telling you the exact same thing. The only real difference of opinion within the Legion comes from the Legions top commanders, but even then that's all just minor and petty squabbling over how to best achieve the same result.

-Interacting with the Legion is boring because there's not much to really hear from anyone beyond Caesar himself.
-The Legion's roman theme isn't that unique given just how many cosplayer based factions there are in lore already.
-The Legion's system of screwing over everyone they make deals with makes faction interaction with them predictable.
-Caesar being this intelligent guy, leading this large slaver/raider army, is shared with everyone from Ashur in Fallout 3, to the player character in Fallout 4(assuming they side with the raiders in Nuka World)

Even the Khans, who are in many ways similar to The Legion(being a group of raiders who cosplay, and can form an empire in at least one ending of NV) are more interesting then the Legion because they aren't so brainwashed as to eliminate basically all difference of ideals, and they are actually open to interacting with other groups in a ways then betraying them.
 
What about a rebellion from towns under Legion rule? And the tribals that were integrated into the Legion having a revolt? There's plenty of interesting scenarios with the Legion.

And by associating the Legion with the gangs from Nuka World- a group with "we like torturing and killing mwahaha" "we like to put teddy bears on out armour and we respect strong people" "we're basically mercenaries" it shows you can't separate good factions from... Bethesda's.

I'm going to say this again, because you keep ignoring this point; if you disagree, then it's a matter of opinions and we should stop this argument as it's about faction preference and not ideal Fallout games. Right : "just because the majority of the soldiers are like drones, that doesn't make the faction boring." The Legion is shown to have competent leaders, a strong presence through intrigue rather than brute force, and also alliances and uneasy peace between several other factions.
 
SarcasticGoodGuy said:
What about a rebellion from towns under Legion rule? And the tribals that were integrated into the Legion having a revolt? There's plenty of interesting scenarios with the Legion.
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I don't really see that happening. According to Raul, Arizona was so plagued with raiders before the Legion came that it was impossible to trade with towns even two miles down the road, and the people of the region weren't able to overcome them. Yet the Legion slaughtered them. A civil uprising would result in a rather swift victory for the Legion.

The tribals have all been brainwashed by this point. They are all those brainwashed soldiers we see in New Vegas.
SarcasticGoodGuy said:
And by associating the Legion with the gangs from Nuka World- a group with "we like torturing and killing mwahaha" "we like to put teddy bears on out armour and we respect strong people" "we're basically mercenaries" it shows you can't separate good factions from... Bethesda's.
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You mean like the Legion's "mwahaha we like raping, and crucifying people, and betraying groups we allied with because its fun!"
SarcasticGoodGuy said:
I'm going to say this again, because you keep ignoring this point; if you disagree, then it's a matter of opinions and we should stop this argument as it's about faction preference and not ideal Fallout games. Right : "just because the majority of the soldiers are like drones, that doesn't make the faction boring." The Legion is shown to have competent leaders, a strong presence through intrigue rather than brute force, and also alliances and uneasy peace between several other factions.
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1. I never saw this as an argument. Its been a rather civil conversation actually.
2. You have never made the point that we should stop. All you have said is that you would like to see them in a future Fallout game, just not as a major faction. something I dont particularly disagree with.
 
Greed said:
I don't really see that happening. According to Raul, Arizona was so plagued with raiders before the Legion came that it was impossible to trade with towns even two miles down the road, and the people of the region weren't able to overcome them. yet the Legion slaughtered them. A civil uprising would result in a rather swift victory for the Legion, and the tribalis have all been brainwashed by this point.
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Again this is just assumption, as we've never seen any of these towns. Instead of making assumptions based on limited evidence, I think these areas should be explored in future games. Plus, if under Lanius' command the Legion move west to conquer the NCR, a civil uprising could be a possibility, after all the Courier does say the Legion cannot hold both the west and the east (assumption :smug:).
Greed said:
You mean like the Legion's "mwahaha we like raping, and crucifying people, and betraying groups we allied with because its fun!"
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See, it's more than that. By crucifying people, they are purifying the wasteland of degenerates. They're bringing civilisation back to the wasteland, and Caesar chose a successful empire to model his new world in. Betrayal is a means to gain power, through lowering their enemies guard they can quickly defeat them and minimize their own casualties- if anything it's smart. And they have a reason- they want to unify the tribes, this is why they betrayed the Twisted Hairs.

Whereas the Disciples willingly kill people for fun, the Legion have a cause. That gives them depth- they have a reason to be in this world, they have effects on this world. The NW raiders just sort of sit there in Nuka World and then you build flags in the Commonwealth- in comparison the Legion are much deeper.

Greed said:
1. I never saw this as an argument. Its been a rather civil conversation actually.
2. You have never made the point that we should stop. All you have said is that you would like to see them in a future Fallout game, just not as a major faction. something I dont particularly disagree with.
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So... we agree on that?
 
Well if you want my to know my fallout game you can just play my mod fallout atlanta
 
Dr Fallout said:
When someone says the Legion are ridiculously evil, I point them to the Mongols.

Or the Japanese.
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You could also point to all of Beth's raiders as well. At least the Legion allow for negotiation. Beth's raiders simply shoot on sight (only the Pitt and arguably Nuka World tried to deviate from this formula).

Dr Fallout said:
Or the Japanese.
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I do wonder what purpose do the Yakuza have in Fallout 2 aside from being more mooks to grind XP from and being capable of punching through APA?
Were they supposed to be developed further?
 
CerberusGate said:
You could also point to all of Beth's raiders as well. At least the Legion allow for negotiation. Beth's raiders simply shoot on sight (only the Pitt and arguably Nuka World tried to deviate from this formula).
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I mean more that if you find their raping, crucifying and going around squashing other tribes as "EVILZ" then look at the real life Mongols and their practices.
CerberusGate said:
I do wonder what purpose do the Yakuza have in Fallout 2 aside from being more mooks to grind XP from and being capable of punching through APA?
Were they supposed to be developed further?
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Maybe, they were really underdone.
 
Dr Fallout said:
I mean more that if you find their raping, crucifying and going around squashing other tribes as "EVILZ" then look at the real life Mongols and their practices.
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Also, not gonna forget the slinging corpses over enemy lines to demoralize them IIRC. Wasn't that one of the things that led to the Black Plague (I'm just using what I'm barely recalling at the moment)?
 
CerberusGate said:
Also, not gonna forget the slinging corpses over enemy lines to demoralize them IIRC. Wasn't that one of the things that led to the Black Plague (I'm just using what I'm barely recalling at the moment)?
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Yes it was, when the Mongols attacked Genoese Crimea, they flung the bodies of plague ridden soldiers into the city. The Italian merchants evacuated, taking the plague with them. Also, don't forget how the Mongols bridge moats... by walking in slaves/prisoners/criminals into them, filling them up with packed flesh.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Yes it was, when the Mongols attacked Genoese Crimea, they flung the bodies of plague ridden soldiers into the city. The Italian merchants evacuated, taking the plague with them. Also, don't forget how the Mongols bridge moats... by walking in slaves/prisoners/criminals into them, filling them up with packed flesh.
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Yikes... I forget how brutal the Mongols could be. Though I should not complain too much; after all, I could be distantly related to Genghis Khan like most of people.
 
CerberusGate said:
Yikes... I forget how brutal the Mongols could be. Though I should not complain too much; after all, I could be distantly related to Genghis Khan like most of people.
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Yeah, BUT like the Legion they brought in stability and order, uniting various people under a single empire, Of course, UNLIKE the Legion they let the conquered people keep their own culture for most part.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Yeah, BUT like the Legion they brought in stability and order, uniting various people under a single empire, Of course, UNLIKE the Legion they let the conquered people keep their own culture for most part.
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True... true... The Mongols did have one of the biggest empires in the world and probably could have taken all of Europe if not for several factors (IIRC the main one was Genghis Khan's failing health).
 
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