The Legion is the best option for the wasteland

[Antiwarprofallout]

One, the legion isn't mechanized. They hate technology, them using trucks to move forces quickly from one place to another is very unlikely.

Two, the Legion has no effective counter to Vertibirds. They wouldn't be using missle launchers any time soon, that is probably a bit too advanced for them.

Three, the legion would break NCR lines how exactly? They would be fighting uphill against trenches, concertina wire, and crew serviced weapons. They wouldn't have air or artillery support to soften up NCR positions, and the legion as a whole would be under threat from an attack from NCR forces from Bullhead city to the south of Searchlight.

(http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bullhead_City)

So you think that you can get enslaved tribals in leather armor with machetes to march a hundred yards while under fire from artillery and air to ground attack, sniper fire and machine gun fire, survive all that, and attempt to engage soldiers who aren't injured or disoriented and could get off a few dozen shots before the tribal could get within striking distance, to kill that soldier? Good luck with that, fancy lad cake.

 

[superdude34]

They hate technology

Oh great, you are one of those guys who think they are luddites. Go do some research and you'll find out that they are not, just use technology sparsely and that is to their advantage. They dont hate it, they're just not reliant on it.

them using trucks to move forces quickly from one place to another is very unlikely.

Nobody uses trucks to move forces from places quickly, this is Fallout. There are no working trucks.

Two, the Legion has no effective counter to Vertibirds. They wouldn't be using missle launchers any time soon, that is probably a bit too advanced for them.

The NCR own about 5 vertibirds and those are used in cargo transport roles and carrying the president, not in combat. So that not a problem for the legion. And who says they cannot just loot a couple of rocket launchers? And it wont exactly be hard for them to send a frumentarii to go buy about 6 from the gun runners.

Three, the legion would break NCR lines how exactly? They would be fighting uphill against trenches, concertina wire, and crew serviced weapons. They wouldn't have air or artillery support to soften up NCR positions, and the legion as a whole would be under threat from an attack from NCR forces from Bullhead city to the south of Searchlight.

Send 10,000 troops and your stupid idea will last about 5 minutes.

artillery and air to ground attack

they dont have air to ground attack. And what artillery? They dont have any of either, apart from a cannon at hoover dam, and nobody knows if that works, and the Legion own hoover dam after the end, so no artillery or air support.
All the Legion need to do is encircle and starve out the NCR in this fortress thing.

So you think that you can get enslaved tribals in leather armor with machetes

Yeah that's generalization, there are about 10 classes of legion soldiers all with different Armour and weapons.

(http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Bullhead_City)

Solution: invade and occupy bullhead city.

Anyway its canon that this never happens in the Legion ending (which is what were debating about) so it is irrelevant.
All this stuff you've written down about the fortress relies on assumptions, so I'm not taking it seriously.

 

[Risewild]

This is what I said about the Legion in some other thread around here:

J.E Sawyer said this about the people and communities that exist in the Legion territory:

The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).
In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).

So living under Legion rule has advantages and disadvantages, but it is unquestionable that it is safer to travel and even live in Legion territory than anywhere else (unless one disobeys the Legion of course):

Those living under the Legion's control are considered subjects, not members of the Legion proper. Lands under Caesar's protection enjoy stability and security far greater than lands outside its sphere of influence. Traders that have to cross NCR's territories with a guard contingent can safely travel on Legion trade routes alone, without any fear or danger of being attacked by raiders or other criminals. Caesar is considered a harsh, but benevolent lord by those who reside inside his domain but have not been enslaved into his army.

About slaves in the Legion:

The Legion is first and foremost a slave army, the sole owner of which is Caesar. As Caesar conquers the peoples of the wasteland, he strips them of their tribal identities and merges them into his forces. There is no other tribe than the Legion itself.

As a slave army, the Legion maintains a very strict hierarchy or division of roles. All able-bodied males become slave soldiers with a singular purpose: to fight for Caesar until they fall in battle. This reason for being is imprinted into each legionary during his reconditioning, or, if one was born into the Legion, upbringing and training. Legionaries become unconditionally devoted to their leader, living to fight. Contrary to expectations, experience and veterancy has no bearing on one's position in the Legion. While some may receive better equipment and more dangerous tasks to fulfill, at the end of the day, all soldiers remain slaves, disposable human tools that are discarded the moment they stop fulfilling their purpose.

Women are given the role of, essentially, support corps. Caesar specifically forbids women from fighting, instead using them as caretakers, healers, midwives, and breeders to support the Legion's continuous campaign of expansion. Almost all members of the Legion express condescending and downright misogynistic opinions of women and their non-combat roles. While the portrayal of female slaves in Fallout: New Vegas follows standard stereotypes, it is important to reiterate that both females and males in the Legion are fully subjugated by Caesar - though women have the distinction of being considered 'sub-human' instead of merely slaves, due to the Legion's perception of their sex.

So everyone in the Legion is a slave except for Caeser, and there is no retirement for Legion soldiers, once they stop being able to fight they get discarded and probably get rid of.

An interesting distinction is that the Legion is only the slaves (although only the lowest ones are called "slaves" in the Legion, but everyone is a slave of Caeser, no matter what rank), which make the entirety of the army, no settlement inside Legion territory is part of the Legion, and yet anyone on the Legion can still boss around anyone that lives in their territory, so that means that slaves have higher power than normal people that are not part of the Legion, in my opinion it is quite interesting.

And I do have to say, once Caeser dies all hell will break loose...

As a slave army, the Legion maintains a very strict hierarchy or division of roles. All able-bodied males become slave soldiers with a singular purpose: to fight for Caesar until they fall in battle. This reason for being is imprinted into each legionary during his reconditioning, or, if one was born into the Legion, upbringing and training. Legionaries become unconditionally devoted to their leader

They are brain washed to always obey and serve Caeser, without him I bet there would be riots and revolts with a sense of not having a purpose anymore, I think some would join whoever replace Caeser, but the rest would fight against it. Without Caeser the Legion will crumble for sure.

 

[Antiwarprofallout]

The NCR has a mechanized division and uses trucks over in McCarran. The NCR also has plenty of vertibirds left from the war against the Enclave. Also that "cannon" is a anti-air gun, and since the NCR's military is based on modern militaries it can be safely assumed that they have some artillery guns, either salvaged or produced. And the gun runners are a company from the NCR that sells to the NCR and would be kicked out of the Mojave if Caesar wins.


Send 10,000 and 10,000 will either be dead or running away with their tails behind their legs within a few hours. They aren't bullet proof or artillery proof, and you still haven't provided how the Legion would break the NCR lines. They don't have a numbers advantage and would be outnumbered by the NCR, they don't have a firepower advantage, and they can't encircled the Outpost with mountains on either side.

 

[superdude34]

modern militaries it can be safely assumed that they have some artillery guns, either salvaged or produced.

Assumptions are not enough, and we don't see any artillery ingame so we can safely assume they don't have any in the Mojave.
I really doubt they have any, its highly improbable.
The Chinese battered the West Coast during the Great War, so it is likely that the military installations that had artillery were utterly destroyed, leaving no artillery pieces to be scavenged in California.

The NCR also has plenty of vertibirds left from the war against the Enclave.

We've established they are irrelevant because they are not armed and cannot perform air ground strikes etc.

And the gun runners are a company from the NCR that sells to the NCR and would be kicked out of the Mojave if Caesar wins.

Then he could send a Frumentarii to wherever they set up shop next.
Anway, I'm pretty sure they've got them already.

Send 10,000 and 10,000 will either be dead or running away with their tails behind their legs within a few hours.

Your saying that about 100 troops, some concertina wire, and a couple of machine guns could stop 10,000 well armed troops. Get fucking real.

They don't have a numbers advantage and would be outnumbered by the NCR

Its a war nation with over 100,000 troops.

and they can't encircled the Outpost with mountains on either side.

Then they could just wait outside and stop any food getting in. NCR starve.

Anyway lets not debate this anymore since it is proven it never happens after FNV, so we are just debating something that does not matter at ll.

 

[Illuminati Confirmed!]

Assumptions are not enough, and we don't see any artillery ingame so we can safely assume they don't have any in the Mojave.
I really doubt they have any, its highly improbable.
The Chinese battered the West Coast during the Great War, so it is likely that the military installations that had artillery were utterly destroyed, leaving no artillery pieces to be scavenged in California.

Caesar has a howitzer on Fortification Hill, and I'm pretty sure that if defense turrets and robots in places like the Sierra depot in Fo2 survived the nukes, so did the much sturdier artillery. Besides, making a basic mortar isn't nuclear physics, even your average tribal could figure that one out.

We've established they are irrelevant because they are not armed and cannot perform air ground strikes etc.

Mobility is the greatest strength an army can have.

 

[eissa]

So some machine guns, trenches, and some barbed wire is going to stop a mechanized war nation of over 100,000 consummate warriors.
Dream on sunshine.

mechanized? are you kidding, what kind of war vehicle that legion uses? not just that, what vehicle or mean to transport supplies faster?

 

[Izak]

Assumptions are not enough, and we don't see any artillery ingame so we can safely assume they don't have any in the Mojave.
I really doubt they have any, its highly improbable.
The Chinese battered the West Coast during the Great War, so it is likely that the military installations that had artillery were utterly destroyed, leaving no artillery pieces to be scavenged in California.

The Legion has an artillery gun, so it's safe to assume that some exist in NCR territory, not to mention that part in Fallout 2 where you have to load and fire an artillery gun in order to get into a military base.

Then he could send a Frumentarii to wherever they set up shop next.
Anway, I'm pretty sure they've got them already.

The Gun Runners aren't some 2-bit operation that can be destroyed by a couple of frumentarii, they've been around since Fallout 1, they're a large company.

Its a war nation with over 100,000 troops.

NCR has a large population as well, and would definitely mobilize if the Legion was approaching.

Anyway let's not debate this anymore since it is proven it never happens after FNV, so we are just debating something that does not matter at all.

Well, Caesar certainly makes it sound as though he wants to invade the NCR and, Lanius sounds pretty excited about that as well.

 

[Antiwarprofallout]

The biggest unit the Legion has is a cohort usually composed of around 500 infantrymen, while the biggest unit in the NCR army is a division of around 10,000 men. This is indicative of a far smaller size of army than you suggest. So instead of 10,000 vs 100, it'd be 5,000 vs 10,000. As for vertibirds:

The Vertibird has a heavily armored fuselage and can be outfitted with a variety of offensive weapons and defensive countermeasures, the most common being Gatling lasers, missile racks, and a mini nuke bay

All you would need is a dozen vertibirds taking turns attacking the Legion advances through the battle. The NCR could even bomb Nipton and the road coming from it, cutting the legion off unless they go through the mountains.

Also how would the Legion cut off the Mojave outpost from food when the entirety of New California (an agricultural powerhouse) is behind it?

 

[superdude34]

how would the Legion cut off the Mojave outpost from food when the entirety of New California (an agricultural powerhouse) is behind it?

By sabotaging supply caravans etc. forgot to mention that they could snipe the outpost, the Legion has quite a lot of high tech sniper rifles.
I also forgot to mention the Legion make extensive use of the frumentarii so they could easily sabotage the outpost, and destroy it.

The Legion has an artillery gun, so it's safe to assume that some exist in NCR territory, not to mention that part in Fallout 2 where you have to load and fire an artillery gun in order to get into a military base.

I think the Legion found that in the Mojave, which was not strategically bombed. Anyway, since it was strategically bombed there wont really be many about will there?
Anyway, the Legion can just sabotage and destroy the artillery.

The Gun Runners aren't some 2-bit operation that can be destroyed by a couple of frumentarii, they've been around since Fallout 1, they're a large company.

nah you've misread my point. I said that Legion could buy rockets from gun runners, the guy said that the gun runners would be driven outta the Mojave, and I said he could just get some frumentarii to buy wherever they set up shop next.

The biggest unit the Legion has is a cohort usually composed of around 500 infantrymen, while the biggest unit in the NCR army is a division of around 10,000 men. This is indicative of a far smaller size of army than you suggest. So instead of 10,000 vs 100, it'd be 5,000 vs 10,000.

Who gives a shit what its indicative of. Just because they have smaller units does not mean its smaller.

The Vertibird has a heavily armored fuselage and can be outfitted with a variety of offensive weapons and defensive countermeasures, the most common being Gatling lasers, missile racks, and a mini nuke bay

Its confirmed they are not used for fighting the Legion, but just cargo transport. Anyway its not as if they can't be shot down or sabotaged.

Well, Caesar certainly makes it sound as though he wants to invade the NCR and, Lanius sounds pretty excited about that as well.

God dammit izak you've misinterpreted me again. I was talking about this guys fortress idea, not the legion invading NCR.

mechanized? are you kidding, what kind of war vehicle that legion uses? not just that, what vehicle or mean to transport supplies faster?

Well they are pretty modern. I mean, they use thermic lances and anti material rifles.

 

[TomJ]

So some machine guns, trenches, and some barbed wire is going to stop a mechanized war nation of over 100,000 consummate warriors.
Dream on sunshine.

Yes some barbed wire and trenches can stop an army. It stopped well armed armies in the First World War. Trench warfare is why that war drug on for as long as it did. People literally had to fight tooth and nail for each meter they took. They didn't just mow over one another.

And Sunshine, the Legion couldn't beat the NCR in its homeland. The NCR outnumbers the Legion and that is because the NCR embraces science and modern medicine. Even if you assumed a 99% death rate due to the bombs in 2077, 250k people would be alive afterward in Southern California, the NCR homeland. The Legion would have about 70k at the end of the war. And Caesar admits the people there were relatively backwards before hand. Which means population recovery would be a lot slower than in Southern California.

So what does this mean? Let me spell it out in easy terms, in a war of attrition, the NCR can lose more soldiers than the Legion could field. It won't matter if the legion can throw up 20k well trained troops, the NCR could lose 100k and still keep fighting. Its the USSR in World War 2. The Germans were far better armed and the Russians won simple because they outnumbered the Germans. Or it you want a video game reference, I've white peaced people in Stellaris who had better tech just cause I could put a crap load of ships onto the battlefield. Numbers matter and the Legion doesn't have it.

And if you read my bit about the Follower's, House likely would use them to reach his own ends, he's strategic, not a micromanager. He needs things and he'll do what he can to get them. And the Follower's are far more malleable than the NCR.

 

[superdude34]

Even if you assumed a 99% death rate due to the bombs in 2077, 250k people would be alive afterward in Southern California, the NCR homeland.

You are forgetting rad poisoning, starvation, dehydration, injury and so forth. That probably took away another 150k plus

es some barbed wire and trenches can stop an army. It stopped well armed armies in the First World War. Trench warfare is why that war drug on for as long as it did. People literally had to fight tooth and nail for each meter they took. They didn't just mow over one another.

knew it was a matter of time until someone mention ww1
Right, WW1 was different because there was thousands of soldiers on each side, each side with huge amounts of resources etc.
The scenario that our friend dreamt up was maybe 50 - 100 troops, some machine guns and barbed wire, vs over 10,000 well trained soldiers.

Numbers matter and the Legion doesn't have it.

Almost everywhere in game, and on fallout wiki, it mentions how NCR technological advantage is dampened by the Legions sheer numbers. Also I presume you meant 70k people in Arizona? Ok then, he has 70k people in Arizona, and probably over 100k more from the lands he conquered. Its an empire god dammit, he has taken slaves everywhere. He has taken slaves from over 70 large tribes.

 

[Crni Vuk]

So some machine guns, trenches, and some barbed wire is going to stop a mechanized war nation of over 100,000 consummate warriors.
Dream on sunshine.

That's literaly how the Brits conquered most of their African colonies. A couple of machineguns, a handfull of people. And thousands of dead Zulu warriors.

 

[superdude34]

That's literaly how the Brits conquered most of their African colonies. A couple of machineguns, a handfull of people. And thousands of dead Zulu warriors.

Well this time both sides have machine guns

 

[Riven326]

The Legion are just a bunch of idiot tribals following a nut. As soon as Caesar bites the bullet, the Legion will fall apart. The best choice might have been the Enclave all things considered. Next to that I'd say NCR.

 

[Chromevod]

NCR supposedly has a population of 700,000 by the time of New Vegas. They aren't all combatants, sure, but most of them probably could be if push comes to shove.

 

[TomJ]

You are forgetting rad poisoning, starvation, dehydration, injury and so forth. That probably took away another 150k plus

knew it was a matter of time until someone mention ww1
Right, WW1 was different because there was thousands of soldiers on each side, each side with huge amounts of resources etc.
The scenario that our friend dreamt up was maybe 50 - 100 troops, some machine guns and barbed wire, vs over 10,000 well trained soldiers.

Almost everywhere in game, and on fallout wiki, it mentions how NCR technological advantage is dampened by the Legions sheer numbers. Also I presume you meant 70k people in Arizona? Ok then, he has 70k people in Arizona, and probably over 100k more from the lands he conquered. Its an empire god dammit, he has taken slaves everywhere. He has taken slaves from over 70 large tribes.

The population point. There are 6.8 million people in Arizona today. If you assume 99% of them die when the bombs drop, and the rad poisoning, instability, starvation and so on. That leaves you with 68k when things are all said and done. Southern California has between 23-25 million people, same math. 250k maybe. According to Fallout 2, the NCR ran a census and they had 700k then, that wasn't including things to the north of them. That was just SoCal. All of Legion territory might have 300k by 2280. The NCR population would be in the millions by 2280. So yes, they'd outnumber the Legion and by a lot. And the NCR beat back the BoS with a numbers advantage, I'm pretty sure they can handle tribals that are going to bumrush their positions. Wars of attrition are long and bloody, and the bigger army is going to win. And the NCR can draft a much larger army if need be. At some point training doesn't matter, numbers do, just ask the BoS.

Even if you assume the Legion fighting force out numbers ALL of the NCR's fighting force, not just what they have fucking off in Vegas, the NCR can just draft a crap load of people and put them on the front lines. Even if you take technology away from them, which they have, and numbers, which they would have in California proper, they'd win on numbers alone. The NCR had more people prewar and would have more people afterward, also the NCR would have more supplies at home. The Legion has its advantages due to proximity, not superiority. The closer you get to your core, the more your advantages matter. If you've ever played a strategy game, you'd know that.

 

[superdude34]

Did you read the stuff I wrote about the tribes he conquered. 100k is a conservative estimate bro.
Anyway, it does not matter how many civllians the NCR can conscript. I would agree with you about the numbers winning thing, but I just dont think the NCR has enough people.
They would probably need over a million.
700k probaby unenthusiatic low morale untrained/badly trained brahmin herders and farmers vs 400k skilled and well armed warriors who's sole reason for existing is to kill other human beings.
I forsee the NCR millita being turned into bloody red toothpaste.

 

[Antiwarprofallout]

I don't think you have been looking at the geography of the Mojave outpost lately, but it's a hill surrounded by mountains on both sides with a plain behind it. There would be trenches going down the hill all the way to the bottom from side to side. The Frumentari would have a hard time getting from the bottom to the top past several waves of barbed wire, trench and NCR trooper, to attack the caravans which are out of the line of sight of anything the legion has to muster, including snipers.

Now, you could fit about 20-15 machine guns on all of the trenches, and due to the layout of the Mojave outpost, they could all be firing at the legion advance from the time they leave Nipton to the time they have reached the foot of the Mojave outpost, at which point they would have to start fighting uphill. Also the NCR has an army composed of about a dozen divisions and equips them, I doubt they couldn't build a few artillery guns. Also, the NCR's population would be numbering in the millions by now, and the Legion wouldn't have 400,000, they'd have less because they don't have the entirety of their territories population fighting for them. I don't think they even have 100,000 , because the NCR military has that and they outnumber them.

 

[The Dutch Ghost]

The Legion are just a bunch of idiot tribals following a nut. As soon as Caesar bites the bullet, the Legion will fall apart. The best choice might have been the Enclave all things considered. Next to that I'd say NCR.

The Enclave? I assume you mean the Fallout 3 one because the Fallout 2 one was keen on exterminating any 'mutants' outside their own population which they considered the only 'true' humanity.
And the Fallout 3 ones are pretty much idiots, they did not even try to recruit other groups of pure humans like those of Vault 101 to their ranks, let alone be able to convince places like Rivet City that them joining the Enclave would be a good thing. (the Enclave would make a great ally and customer for food and clean water and they possess a lot of technology and knowledge)
All they did was hide in a bunker and set up those useless little outposts throughout the Capital Wasteland.

Plus their basic goal is to remake the US wasteland into the United States as it was before the war. You know, a country that had barely any democracy and freedoms any more, increasing poverty, and ruled over by a xenophobic ultra capitalist circle of elites.

If they would ever want to make something like the old US again they would have to reduce the population numbers anyway as there are not enough remaining resources to create this fantasy with even the reduced population of the North American continent in the Fallout present. There would be to many 'not have's' that would envy the 'haves'.