The Legion is the best option for the wasteland

Dr Fallout said:
Yeah, Mr House helps Vegas but that's it. Not really, they're honourable in their own way. The Followers only worked with the Garrets because there are clear bonuses in doing so (play over the quest again and read what is said), they weren't bribed. Yeah, relying on mercenaries. That's NEVER worked out badly right?
Click to expand...

And its pure speculation on my part that House would find a way to make a deal with the Kings and Followers. House has knowledge beyond either of them. Becoming a puppet state to further the goals of the Followers wouldn't be unreasonable to figure. The Garretts are far more destructive than House. House giving the Followers knowledge which will allow them to grow in exchange for cooperation isn't far fetched. Same for the Kings. You can get them to form an uneasy truce with the NCR. House wouldn't be any different, except the robot army that could wipe them out.
 
TomJ said:
And its pure speculation on my part that House would find a way to make a deal with the Kings and Followers. House has knowledge beyond either of them. Becoming a puppet state to further the goals of the Followers wouldn't be unreasonable to figure. The Garretts are far more destructive than House. House giving the Followers knowledge which will allow them to grow in exchange for cooperation isn't far fetched. Same for the Kings. You can get them to form an uneasy truce with the NCR. House wouldn't be any different, except the robot army that could wipe them out.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, knowledge doesn't always equal power if you have no means to use it. Umm I doubt that, the followers are almost anarchists in their relations to governments. Except he refused to do so already, with the followers being forced to hacking (they actually did ask him but he refused).
 
superdude34 said:
@Antiwarprofallout ok so 10,000 to 20,000 troops all charging at once is not gonna overwhelm 10 or 20 machine guns, couple of trenches, maybe some arty guns. Get real. I'm done discussing this with you because of the sheer ridiculousness.
The Legion do have almost all of the territories enslaved and fighting for them. Remember most of the people in Legion territory were tribals, not civilized people, so they have all been enslaved, and we can safely say 76 large tribes equals over 200k people.
@Crni Vuk what evidence do you have to back up that claim?
Click to expand...

There's actually a lot of decent guess work that's been done on legion fighting numbers and it's around 8,000-12,000. I don't doubt Legion could field more to fight but then so could NCR and even the NCR troopers with the barebones of basic training are going to be favourable to tribals and slaves who've just been sent to charge in.
 
As succesfull as the Legion might be in their teritory, but I doubt their way of doing things is really applicable everywhere. It is an army of slavers after all. Anyway, what ever if the NCR could do it better? That is a difficult question as well. But, you can not deny that the NCR has been around for a very long time, the Legion not. So they still have to prove themself.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Fair enough, knowledge doesn't always equal power if you have no means to use it. Umm I doubt that, the followers are almost anarchists in their relations to governments. Except he refused to do so already, with the followers being forced to hacking (they actually did ask him but he refused).
Click to expand...

Mr. House if he is anything, its strategic. If he were to ever use the Followers for anything, he would do it on his time, not theirs. Meaning he'd wait till Vegas was secured then do something with them. And if they're willing to compromise with the Garretts, they might be willing to be less anarchistic to get access to things. Also, when House talks about his plans, he never made it seem like there would be people involved, it was all abstract. He may have knowledge and a robot army, but micromanaging that must be taxing mentally. And who else has expertise do do anything besides the Followers? The BoS? They only want weapons and would rise up the first chance they get. The Followers are at least not as married to their ideology to the same extent the BoS is. There aren't that many people on the Strip that are actual residents and the Vault dwellers are gone from what is shown in game. People from surrounding towns will need to be educated to be useful. Also, with the NCR and Legion gone, who's going to keep the Fiends and other Raiders at bay? One thing Legion and NCR patrols do is keep the Raiders down. Without them, some force would be needed to make commerce safe and some puppet state is the next logical step.
 
TomJ said:
The BoS? They only want weapons and would rise up the first chance they get.
Click to expand...
Eh, the NCR and BoS coexisted peacefully for 200 years before anything went wrong, I'm sure they'd keep peace with House for a while, especially considering their shitty position as of New Vegas.
(but yeah they won't help House considering he forces you to wipe them out.)
TomJ said:
the Vault dwellers are gone from what is shown in game.
Click to expand...
More like integrated; the Boomers are busy acting all isolationist, Sarah is busy running a successful business, her brother is busy being neurotic and Doc Mitchell is doing fairly well for himself. sure we don't meet the 1000+ Vault Dwellers you would expect to be in Vegas, but I'd say that's understandable considering the length of the game.
TomJ said:
who's going to keep the Fiends and other Raiders at bay?
Click to expand...
Aside from the Fiends other raiders aren't really a problem and it's likely that the courier wipes the fiends out; not to mention raiders are a symptom of poverty which House (being a former industrialist) could feasibly put an end to.
TomJ said:
One thing Legion and NCR patrols do is keep the Raiders down.
Click to expand...
The Legion can do that sure, but NCR haven't really had any success in that area.
TomJ said:
People from surrounding towns will need to be educated to be useful.
Click to expand...
The Followers are probably the most scholarly faction (aside from the BoS) we encounter but it's not as though people are helpless when it comes to educating themselves, especially with the wealth of preserved pre-war knowledge and the steady flood of educated people from NCR coming to Vegas.
 
TomJ said:
Mr. House if he is anything, its strategic. If he were to ever use the Followers for anything, he would do it on his time, not theirs. Meaning he'd wait till Vegas was secured then do something with them. And if they're willing to compromise with the Garretts, they might be willing to be less anarchistic to get access to things. Also, when House talks about his plans, he never made it seem like there would be people involved, it was all abstract. He may have knowledge and a robot army, but micromanaging that must be taxing mentally. And who else has expertise do do anything besides the Followers? The BoS? They only want weapons and would rise up the first chance they get. The Followers are at least not as married to their ideology to the same extent the BoS is. There aren't that many people on the Strip that are actual residents and the Vault dwellers are gone from what is shown in game. People from surrounding towns will need to be educated to be useful. Also, with the NCR and Legion gone, who's going to keep the Fiends and other Raiders at bay? One thing Legion and NCR patrols do is keep the Raiders down. Without them, some force would be needed to make commerce safe and some puppet state is the next logical step.
Click to expand...

Were Legion directly attacking Raiders and Fiends? I was under the assumption they left the Fiendsand various raiders be because they were making trouble for the NCR
 
SpecialHands said:
Were Legion directly attacking Raiders and Fiends? I was under the assumption they left the Fiends and various raiders be because they were making trouble for the NCR
Click to expand...
The Fiends do appear to be a puppet force but there's no indication that they are beyond the fact that they attack Camp Mccarran in coordination with the Legion's attacks, Caesar orders their deaths once he takes Vegas though, so there's no love there.
 
Izak said:
Eh, the NCR and BoS coexisted peacefully for 200 years before anything went wrong, I'm sure they'd keep peace with House for a while, especially considering their shitty position as of New Vegas.
(but yeah they won't help House considering he forces you to wipe them out.)

More like integrated; the Boomers are busy acting all isolationist, Sarah is busy running a successful business, her brother is busy being neurotic and Doc Mitchell is doing fairly well for himself. sure we don't meet the 1000+ Vault Dwellers you would expect to be in Vegas, but I'd say that's understandable considering the length of the game.

Aside from the Fiends other raiders aren't really a problem and it's likely that the courier wipes the fiends out; not to mention raiders are a symptom of poverty which House (being a former industrialist) could feasibly put an end to.

The Legion can do that sure, but NCR haven't really had any success in that area.

The Followers are probably the most scholarly faction (aside from the BoS) we encounter but it's not as though people are helpless when it comes to educating themselves, especially with the wealth of preserved pre-war knowledge and the steady flood of educated people from NCR coming to Vegas.
Click to expand...

Neither the NCR or the Legion are there to do anything humanitarian, but their patrols won't shy away from killing raiders when they encounter them.

The residents of Vault 21 aren't shown except for the three mentioned above. They aren't show working in the casinos or having a quarter on the Strip. So for all we can figure they dispersed after Vault 21 was opened up.

As for education, it is easy to set up and run schools and security with one group doing it. House would need some consistency and having a partner is better than not. There are things the existing factions can do that House can't do on his own.

SpecialHands said:
Were Legion directly attacking Raiders and Fiends? I was under the assumption they left the Fiendsand various raiders be because they were making trouble for the NCR
Click to expand...
They would if encountered on patrols. Also, it is likely the Fiends would spread without the NCR keeping them back. That will eventually cause tourism to drop cause the highways into Vegas will become unsafe. That is where a puppet state would come in handy. They provide education, security and other supplies for Mr. House and the Followers/Kings puppet state would get resources to grow and help people in the Mojave.
 
TomJ said:
Mr. House if he is anything, its strategic. If he were to ever use the Followers for anything, he would do it on his time, not theirs. Meaning he'd wait till Vegas was secured then do something with them. And if they're willing to compromise with the Garretts, they might be willing to be less anarchistic to get access to things. Also, when House talks about his plans, he never made it seem like there would be people involved, it was all abstract. He may have knowledge and a robot army, but micromanaging that must be taxing mentally. And who else has expertise do do anything besides the Followers? The BoS? They only want weapons and would rise up the first chance they get. The Followers are at least not as married to their ideology to the same extent the BoS is. There aren't that many people on the Strip that are actual residents and the Vault dwellers are gone from what is shown in game. People from surrounding towns will need to be educated to be useful. Also, with the NCR and Legion gone, who's going to keep the Fiends and other Raiders at bay? One thing Legion and NCR patrols do is keep the Raiders down. Without them, some force would be needed to make commerce safe and some puppet state is the next logical step.
Click to expand...
Sure, Mr House is a genius so obviously everything he does will succeed. God save me, I've heard all this before. Fine, I admit it! Mr House is fucking super man.

Mercenaries aren't trustworthy at all. Just look at the Roman Empire.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Sure, Mr House is a genius so obviously everything he does will succeed. God save me, I've heard all this before. Fine, I admit it! Mr House is fucking super man.

Mercenaries aren't trustworthy at all. Just look at the Roman Empire.
Click to expand...
I'm not saying, implying or meaning mercenaries. That's what you're thinking. I'm saying having the area around the strip be a self governing colony, something akin to England and Canada in its early days. One nominally controls the other. I'm also not implying a democracy either, but a one party state similar to modern China, which functions in some ways like a corporation.
 
TomJ said:
I'm not saying, implying or meaning mercenaries. That's what you're thinking. I'm saying having the area around the strip be a self governing colony, something akin to England and Canada in its early days. One nominally controls the other. I'm also not implying a democracy either, but a one party state similar to modern China, which functions in some ways like a corporation.
Click to expand...
Then what else? The Mojave doesn't have the manpower to create a decent army or defense force.
 
Dr Fallout said:
Then what else? The Mojave doesn't have the manpower to create a decent army or defense force.
Click to expand...
Well there's the Kings, not all of them are needed in Freeside. Combine that with Westside and the people living in the sewers and they could with support from House take on the Fiends. There are enough people to form a basic defense force and keep some of the highways safe enough for trade and travel. And if you don't agree with that, it means the NCR would be the best option in the game. If Mr. House doesn't have enough securitrons to do his bidding, defend roads and educate people, then why is he a viable option? The NCR would be the better candidate just because they could provide some security and wouldn't enslave everyone like the Legion would.
 
TomJ said:
Well there's the Kings, not all of them are needed in Freeside. Combine that with Westside and the people living in the sewers and they could with support from House take on the Fiends. There are enough people to form a basic defense force and keep some of the highways safe enough for trade and travel. And if you don't agree with that, it means the NCR would be the best option in the game. If Mr. House doesn't have enough securitrons to do his bidding, defend roads and educate people, then why is he a viable option? The NCR would be the better candidate just because they could provide some security and wouldn't enslave everyone like the Legion would.
Click to expand...
They're a gang, not enough of them to make a big difference. They could take out the fiends but they couldn't defend from other raiders and other countries. The only exception is that they stay ONLY in the Mojave and on clear roads but still... they would be spread thin. Not really, some men from a gang and outsiders isn't enough. Sadly it is, just hope there are some politicians who aren't dicks.
 
Dr Fallout said:
They're a gang, not enough of them to make a big difference. They could take out the fiends but they couldn't defend from other raiders and other countries. The only exception is that they stay ONLY in the Mojave and on clear roads but still... they would be spread thin. Not really, some men from a gang and outsiders isn't enough. Sadly it is, just hope there are some politicians who aren't dicks.
Click to expand...

This is one thing that I always find funny here. Someone, in this case me, points out a hole in something Obsidian did and the thing gets defended or my point gets destroyed. If I did this with 3 or 4, everyone would be piling on.

My point is, besides my tangent, is that there are enough people to make a puppet state and that it would be necessary after the NCR and Legion are gone. The Fiends are the biggest threat to Vegas after they're gone. Thanks to patrols, there aren't that many large groups to deal with. Caesar would be dead so the Legion will be in disorder and the NCR would likely deal with Mr. House.

If my character, Arcade and Boone can clear out the Fiends without anyone "dying", I'm sure the people in outer Vegas could cobble up a coalition to deal with the Fiends and provide for common defense. Especially a coalition with a Securitron or two backing them up. Keeping new groups from rising would be the next hurdle, which could be easier to deal with, depending on what the fallout from the events at Hoover Dam are.
 
TomJ said:
This is one thing that I always find funny here. Someone, in this case me, points out a hole in something Obsidian did and the thing gets defended or my point gets destroyed. If I did this with 3 or 4, everyone would be piling on.
Click to expand...
That's for several reasons.
1. Most of us don't like 3 and 4.
2. Most of us like 1, 2 and New Vegas.
3. Most of what Obsidian wrote made sense, of course you have to adjust for certain limitations (you can't expect yourself to meet 1000 former vault dwellers (I really do think meeting those three was a good enough sign that the Vault 21 Dwellers dispersed and integrated.)) but that's to be expected from all games.
4. NMA being largely made up of fans of the Black Isle/Obsidian Fallout games, we're prepared to really stretch our imaginations in order to fill in plot holes, of course we do the exact opposite with 3 and 4 but there is a good reason for that: 3 and 4 have a whole lot more plot holes that are significantly worse.
TomJ said:
The Fiends are the biggest threat to Vegas after they're gone.
Click to expand...
Again it's very likely that the Courier wiped them out single handedly, but either way since you're going with a House ending, the ending slide for Camp McCarran states that House destroyed the Fiends after they attacked the NCR.
TomJ said:
Keeping new groups from rising would be the next hurdle
Click to expand...
Raiders crop up because there aren't any honest ways to make money (I'm assuming this but it is how normal criminals pop up in real life), assuming House, being a business genius, turns Vegas into an industrial superpower, they should simply disappear.
 
TomJ said:
This is one thing that I always find funny here. Someone, in this case me, points out a hole in something Obsidian did and the thing gets defended or my point gets destroyed. If I did this with 3 or 4, everyone would be piling on.
Click to expand...
Is that good or bad? Mainly because there's no possible defense to the problems in 3 or 4, while many mistakes people point out in New Vegas rely on assumption or false evidence. Anyway, when we argue about Vegas we do it quite well I think. No shit posting (most of the time) and people do concede if their point has been destroyed.

Stating something won't make it a fact. You've ignored the fact that the collapsing Legion might end up with hordes of ex-Legionaries moving to the Mojave because it's rich and well off. Even if it's only a splinter faction it proves a great threat, because this is an enemy that can survive without supply lines, don't need guns and are experienced veterans. The NCR might go to war with the urging from General Oliver and certain politicians but I doubt it could directly invade the Mojave.

I have never mentioned they couldn't deal with the Fiends.
 
New Vegas deserves the defence. That's the point. I think no one here would disagree that it contains some flaws and issues - not talking about the shitty engine right now.
However, any criticism with New Vegas, is really nitpicking, compared to F3 and even more so F4. I think that counts for something.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top