The Legion is the best option for the wasteland

[peadar87]

I think it's kind of implied that the Legion have superior numbers, and that's why they're so terrifying. And they're not as poorly-armed as people seem to think either. I like to think they fight sort of like the empire that inspired them. Lightly-armoured and armed Hastati in the front line, these are your recruit legionaries with machetes. They'll break a Tribal force without much problem. Against the NCR, they will possibly cause some casualties, but mainly they will force the NCR to reveal their positions. After them come the Principes. Veterans. More heavily armed and more experienced. They're the ones who will have Cowboy Repeaters and the like. After that the Triarii, the elite, battle hardened troops, held as a reserve.

In open battle, this would work quite well. Against an entrenched enemy, it would pretty much be suicide. The tech level of the Wasteland is about WW1, trench warfare levels. Defensive weaponry like machine guns are well-developed, without anything like heavy armour, widespread artillery or aircraft to destroy them. The only thing stopping any conflict from turning into a trench war slogfest is a lack of numbers. If either side is defeated, and are being smart, they will simply retreat to a choke point and fortify it. It would be very hard to utterly rout a well-prepared enemy when they have that option available to them.

As for who I'd prefer to live under, the NCR or independent New Vegas. The NCR has problems, but they are fixable from within. The Legion is brutal, reactionary, and is likely to descend into civil war when Caesar dies. Compared with that, a bit of corruption in the NCR is small fry.

 

[Crni Vuk]

The thing is, we have no real clue what either the NCR or the Legion really use as tactic and army in detail. Like, we know the bigest inspiration for the Legion is the roman empire. But in which way? Do they follow all of their military princples as well? Or is it really more on the surface, where they actually fall back to completely different tactics when fightng. Same with the NCR. I would assume that it is even more dificult here, as their experience and tactics depends more on the commander who's in charge over the troops.
But at the end of the day it really comes down to numbers and the skill of the leaders.

 

[Dr Fallout]

The thing is, we have no real clue what either the NCR or the Legion really use as tactic and army in detail. Like, we know the bigest inspiration for the Legion is the roman empire. But in which way? Do they follow all of their military princples as well? Or is it really more on the surface, where they actually fall back to completely different tactics when fightng. Same with the NCR. I would assume that it is even more dificult here, as their experience and tactics depends more on the commander who's in charge over the troops.
But at the end of the day it really comes down to numbers and the skill of the leaders.

Forget numbers! 16 Principes can take out 64 NCR soldiers, if we take the words of the Centurion in Cotton Cove (forgot the exact name) at face value. He has two Contubernium (this is information from a Decanus) which is each made up of eight people. I see no reason for the Centurion to lie, and it's entirely possible. NCR patrols are usually made up of around 4 people, meaning that it would take around 16 patrols of NCR to reach that number. As all the soldiers are veterans this makes the statement more realistic.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Those are some hefty odds though. That's like 4 to 1. It might be true, or he might be lying or simply exagerating. But one man taking on 4 others? Particularly if those are armed?
I would question the validty of such an argument. Under which conditions for example? Close combat? Ranged combat? Ambush positions? Trough guerilla tactics? And we havn't talked about the commanders yet.
We are after all, talking about warefare here, what you mentioned is something that seems in my opinion to be something on a more individual level.

The thing is, when you have let us say 16 000 people fighting 64 000, things start to look very different. Now throw artillery, supplies, entrenchements and who knows what else in to the mix, and things are not so simple anymore as like 1 vs 4. I am well aware that very skillfull commanders, can turn the odds in their favour! Just as how Alexander the Great has shown at Gaugamela. But at the same time, you also have the Sovietunion with their armies and commanders, which knew about the weakness AND strength of supperior numbers.

Besides, I am pretty sure the NCR has their elite formations as well.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Those are some hefty odds though. That's like 4 to 1. It might be true, or he might be lying or simply exagerating. But one man taking on 4 others? Particularly if those are armed?
I would question the validty of such an argument. Under which conditions for example? Close combat? Ranged combat? Ambush positions? Trough guerilla tactics? And we havn't talked about the commanders yet.
We are after all, talking about warefare here, what you mentioned is something that seems in my opinion to be something on a more individual level.

The thing is, when you have let us say 16 000 people fighting 64 000, things start to look very different. Now throw artillery, supplies, entrenchements and who knows what else in to the mix, and things are not so simple anymore as like 1 vs 4. I am well aware that very skillfull commanders, can turn the odds in their favour! Just as how Alexander the Great has shown at Gaugamela. But at the same time, you also have the Sovietunion with their armies and commanders, which knew about the weakness AND strength of supperior numbers.

Besides, I am pretty sure the NCR has their elite formations as well.

It's not necessarily a universal standard, but it does go to show that the Legion are an efficient fighting source. The conditions are most likely patrol vs patrol, close combat and ambushes. I'd say a decanus vs a NCR sergeant, the cream of both sides (ignoring the Rangers and so on). It is on an individual level but it shows how effective Legion troops are when it comes to guerrilla tactics and surprise attacks.

By the way, we do actually know Legion doctrine. It's simple pre-Marius Roman tactics involving an attack by the recruits who prove their worth and soften the enemy. After that the Principes lead an assault to further weaken the enemy. The remnants are destroyed by the veterans, the best of the best.

So? All Legionaries are trained like rangers.

 

[peadar87]

Forget numbers! 16 Principes can take out 64 NCR soldiers, if we take the words of the Centurion in Cotton Cove (forgot the exact name) at face value. He has two Contubernium (this is information from a Decanus) which is each made up of eight people. I see no reason for the Centurion to lie, and it's entirely possible. NCR patrols are usually made up of around 4 people, meaning that it would take around 16 patrols of NCR to reach that number. As all the soldiers are veterans this makes the statement more realistic.

He could be exaggerating, either to glorify the legion, or to scare their opponents. The legion, while fearsome fighters, are given to bravado.

Crni Vuk also makes the good point of what type of combat we're talking about. 16 legionaries could quite easily pick off 64 NCR soldiers over the course of a few weeks by ambushing small patrols, attacking lightly-escorted caravans, and sniping. If those same 64 soldiers were holding high ground behind even rudimentary fortifications, with a clear field of fire, it wouldn't even be close. The legionaries would be cut down before they got within half a kilometre of the NCR. In an open battle, the better discipline of the legionaries would probably give them an advantage against poorly-trained troopers who would tend to panic, but we're still probably not talking a 4:1 advantage.

 

[Crni Vuk]

In WW2 you would need an advantage of 1.5-2 to 1 to overcome fortified positions. Obviously, there are many factors to consider, like moral, training, suplies, goals etc.
But this is what the British army gave as average. It was a bit less for the Germans. The difference was not that huge to play much of a role. But that just by the way.

I would assume that the Legion is, in general, a very discplined army. However, if it really comes down to life or death - no step back! I would imagine that the NCR can be quite vicious as well. Rifles and artillery are a real gamer changer here I think. And if you tell the soldiers, if they lose here, the next battle will be in the capital, they might not panick that easily. Look up what the average training of a soldier was in WW, 4 weeks? 6 weeks? The US marines cut their training, during war time from 7 weeks to 5 weeks. And they had in general some very highly motivated soldiers.

It is really difficult to say who would win in a full war between the NCR and the Legion, with thousands if not millions of troops. But, if I had to make a guess, my money would go to the NCR. I simply think they have the numbers and the economy to do it. However, this depends if the NCR or the Legion is the attacker. If the Legion attacks first, I think the NCR could also use defence and survival as moral justification for their citizens and soldiers. It might be much harder to sell a preventive strike. Particularly if the NCR would have very high loses.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I agree with all this, but keep in mind that the example of 16 Principes taking out 64 NCR soldiers may not show how effective their military is, but how effective single soldiers are and their skill in guerrilla warfare.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I agree with all this, but keep in mind that the example of 16 Principes taking out 64 NCR soldiers may not show how effective their military is, but how effective single soldiers are and their skill in guerrilla warfare.

We are with you on that. However, and this is just from my observation in the game, I have the feeling that even the grunts in the NCR, are equiped with rifles, where as the Legion seems to use a lot of meele weapons. At least for the grunts/frontline troops.
So there is that ... when you have two more or less equal armies, I would say the ones with the rifles have a clear edge in combat. I don't want to rule out a Legion beating the NCR even under such conditions. I mean it comes down to the commanders and their skill. But it is always a disadvantage that you have to keep in mind. And the same is of course true for the Legion vs Securitrons.

 

[Throatpunch]

Legion Troops are fucked when proper firepower arrives, like Securitrons. Maybe they are effective against badly trained NCR troopers but when the Securitrons roll up they might as well commit suicide.
Its true that the only reason the Legion still exist is because they have not come across a proper opponent yet. The Securitrons and House are that opponent. I assure you in a war between House and the Legion Mr House would win, and win by a large margin.

Its incredibly hard to kill Securitrons, they win almost every confrontation:


The PDQ-88b securitron is a large, monowheel robot with a titanium alloy housing, resistant to shrapnel and small arms fire. The PDQ-88b securitron is heavily-armed. Its left arm contains a GlastinghouseX-25 Gatling laser for medium range engagements. For close-range suppression and crowd control, the securitron mounts a 9mm machinegun in its right arm. However, these are only secondary weapons; concealed compartments in its shoulders containM-235 missile launchers for long range and surface-to-air engagements, and a rapid-fire G-28 grenade launching system for close range engagements. The robots also have onboard auto-repair systems to repair any damage sustained from combat. Thus armed, a securitron can handle nearly any combat situation.

House does not even need to move around or invade territory, all he needs to do is fortify Vegas and wait for them to come to him. Then he can bomb the shit out of them with missiles and the lasers on the Lucky 38, and they cannot get into Vegas due to the fact that anybody who gets close to the walls will be blown to shit. By the time the Legion has sustained huge casualties due to the bombardment, he could send securitrons out and eviscerate any Legion soldiers left. He can also call in the help of NCR since they have a very close relationship after the House ending in FNV.

See? Thats my point, once the Legion comes across an opponent like House they are utterly outclassed. Training, survival skills and tribal experience doesn't get you everywhere.

 

[Crni Vuk]

I agree with you, the advantage is on those with the fire arms. But you should not rule out what is called, the fog of war. I think.
With people fighting, everything is possible. You assume that the Legion would simply line up and send waves after waves into the meat grinder. THey will probably do that AS WELL, next to other tactics, like they showed with the Khans. The Legion, from what I remember, has a very great reconnaissance system with spies, sabotage and all that. I just think, placing to much confidence on technology, comes with it's own disadvantages. It doesn't seem like for example, Securitrons would be a great weapon for ambushes for example. And it doesn't seem like they show the same way of thinking like a human. The fact that a small unit of like 8 or 10 men, can actually react with a relative freedom, is what makes armies today so succesfull. The Securitrons are strong, no doubts. But they are just robots after all.

 

[Throatpunch]

The Legion, from what I remember, has a very great reconnaissance system with spies, sabotage and all that.

You are correct, but once House shuts Vegas down and institutes martial law there is nothing they can do. Maybe a terror attack but I doubt it would be successful, since anybody who tries to let loose with a gun he'll be dead within second because of securitrons, and bombs wont work, because it would only be worth bombing a casino and nothing suspicious is allowed in those. And no more spies can get in since Vegas will be locked up.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Unless House plans to starve his own city to death, I would say there is still a lot they can do. Infact, now that I think about it, if House would actually lock down Vegas it might be even easier for the Legion to start some trouble. People are unpredictable by nature. So when they feel like House is worse than the Legion ... they might very well turn on him. And House would end up with an empty ghost town. Or his own tower blowing up. All those tribes runing those casinos ... they don't seem to be the most thrustworthy bunch to begin with.

 

[Throatpunch]

Unless House plans to starve his own city to death

You are assuming the siege would last that long. Also Vegas has large food and water reserves.

All those tribes runing those casinos ... they don't seem to be the most thrustworthy bunch to begin with.

Sure they are but after Hoover Dam Mr House has a position of power and they saw what happened to Benny and Cachino; he'll liquidate them

 

[Crni Vuk]

You are assuming the siege would last that long. Also Vegas has large food and water reserves.

*Shrugs* House is probably the most intelligent human alive, at least so far we know. But at the end of the day, he is a human. Not a god.
Anyway, I don't want to get in a huge discussion about something where I even agree with you, as I think in an open confrontation House would have very huge advantages. But if House and the Legion would actually see a war? I would not say that House could simply crush the Legion just like that. The game never mentiones how many Securitrons House has, how they actually operate and where their limitations are, like how much power do they need? How much maintenance? Amunition? Etc. You get the picture.

 

[Throatpunch]

The game never mentiones how many Securitrons House has, how they actually operate and where their limitations are, like how much power do they need? How much maintenance? Amunition? Etc. You get the picture.

So you needn't worry about maintenance because they auto repair, and I think we can infer that they refuel and rearm in Vegas.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Though, it's reasonable to assume that it has its limit, which doesn't eliminate regular maintenance. Unless you would believe that auto-repair is working like some kind of magic. We have no clue to what extend the auto repear actually works, how long it takes, what it can repair and what it can't repair and so on.

 

[Dr Fallout]

In an open battle between Mr House and Legion... Mr House would win, but not by a large margin as people think. Keep in mind that Caesar has elite units that are armed with anti-material rifles which can punch through Securitrons with ease. Overall House would be victorious but he would lose a lot of robots. When it comes to total war... Legion would win. They have the man power to create a long frontage, Mr House doesn't. They can advance through the south and north while Mr House thrashes them in the center. Also, keep in mind that if the Legion sabotage Vegas (we've seen that happen) they can force people away. It's unlikely but possible (again, in game examples) meaning that Mr House could end up fighting for a ghost town.

 

[TomJ]

Stating something won't make it a fact. You've ignored the fact that the collapsing Legion might end up with hordes of ex-Legionaries moving to the Mojave because it's rich and well off. Even if it's only a splinter faction it proves a great threat, because this is an enemy that can survive without supply lines, don't need guns and are experienced veterans. The NCR might go to war with the urging from General Oliver and certain politicians but I doubt it could directly invade the Mojave.

I have never mentioned they couldn't deal with the Fiends.

I'm actually not ignoring what could happen to the Legion after Caesar and Lanius die. I did mention it. I'd imagine some legionnaires would come for Vegas. More likely the ones that are nearby. I doubt they'd come from farther in Legion territory at first. But that's what a future game is for.

I also have a few issues with New Vegas. Mostly the fact that the setting is really empty. I get that Nevada is empty, I lived there and know that. Nipton and Searchlight were destroyed. That's a pain when I need supplies. The Vaults weren't done better than 3's. At least in the fact that they're empty and that bugs me. As a newer fan, I'd like to see a function Vault. I'm ignoring 81 right now. The lack of Legion towns. I know that the development was rushed, but i can only be so forgiving for that. I am willing to admit that New Vegas is better than 4. It's at least 4 times better according to the time I've spent in each games.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I'm actually not ignoring what could happen to the Legion after Caesar and Lanius die. I did mention it. I'd imagine some legionnaires would come for Vegas. More likely the ones that are nearby. I doubt they'd come from farther in Legion territory at first. But that's what a future game is for.

I also have a few issues with New Vegas. Mostly the fact that the setting is really empty. I get that Nevada is empty, I lived there and know that. Nipton and Searchlight were destroyed. That's a pain when I need supplies. The Vaults weren't done better than 3's. At least in the fact that they're empty and that bugs me. As a newer fan, I'd like to see a function Vault. I'm ignoring 81 right now. The lack of Legion towns. I know that the development was rushed, but i can only be so forgiving for that. I am willing to admit that New Vegas is better than 4. It's at least 4 times better according to the time I've spent in each games.

Some? More like many. Whether forced to by superiors, fooled by propaganda or a need to destroy the NCR they would more.

Every game has flaws.