The Legion is the best option for the wasteland

[AradeshHanlon64]

How is collecting tribute "corruption" exactly? If Caesar orders his subjects to give "tribute" ("tribute" as in government-sponsored extortion which is not done out of "corruption" but out of necessity as it would definitely be so much easier to just collect "tribute" than to scour the Wastes for precious metals like you're assuming which would take too long and wouldn't even come close to yielding enough precious metals for minting coins and keeping up with the supply and demand of Legion coin for the sake of preventing inflation not to mention that scavenging and collecting "tribute" could easily coalesce together) they have no choice but to concede to his will as his will is law and it's an offense punishable by death to defy his will (Siri's town was burned to the ground and most residents were put to the sword with the rest like herself being taken as slaves for instance) hence if the Legion (and it does as I've explained it's the only realistic means of acquiring enough precious metals to keep their currency from inflating regardless of whether or not the link says it) shakes down the locals for "tribute" under his auspices then it is by no means "corruption" and hence cannot be punished. I never conceded my point that the Legion does in fact depend entirely on scavenging, raiding and pillaging and trade to sustain itself because it's the truth not to mention that the Legion's infrastructure is too underdeveloped to make any difference at all no I conceded that the Legion does more or less have infrastructure. As I explained earlier Legion medical supplies are simple to make and don't require infrastructure so that that point serves to eliminate the need for infrastructure in this field. The Legion definitely lacks any industry at all so how do they have firearms and ammunition? Scavenging (pulling them off of dead NCR soldiers which Legionaries will do if necessary or just stumbling upon them in ruins of the Old World), raiding and pillaging (collecting them from destroyed towns on the frontlines such as Nipton and Nelson) or trade (purchasing them from traders) are how they acquire firearms or ammunition and given that the firearms that they do possess are poorly-maintained and in shitty condition it's easy to assume that most if not all of their firearms and ammunition is scavenged. In fact, the Legion even lacks rudimentary knowledge in crafting munitions (evidenced whenever you sell the powder charge schematics to Aurelius of Phoenix over at Cottonwood Cove who'll go to confirm this fact himself right afterwards and if the Legion can't even craft powder charges, which are easily the simplest munition in the game, then this definitely goes to show you just how ineffective their infrastructure really is) thus my point regarding this matter is made. As for the standard kit of the Legion (lawn mower blades tied to wooden handles (Machetes), pieces of sharpened scrap metal jabbed and tied to the ends of sticks (Throwing Spears) and sports equipment tied together with leather straps and pieces of scrap metal (Legionary armor) as well as Centurion armor (Veteran Legionary armor with homey touches added by the Centurions personally)) it's all hand-made and requires no infrastructure at all thus my point in this field is also made. Food and water is provided through trade in the case of of Legion subjects (whose population is small enough to get by even without agriculture something that the Legion also lacks) and a mix of foraging and trade for the military arm of the Legion (raiding and pillaging settlements or purchasing food from traders and caravans) with Legion infrastructure playing little to no part in this scenario. Infrastructure has nothing to do with the safe and productive lives of the subjects of the Legion. The Legion provides everything their subjects need so long as they obey the rare direct requests Caesar makes of them and stays out of the Legion's way and they provide for their subjects through scavenging, raiding and pillaging and trade and given the puny size of their subject population it's a very easy order for them to fill. Subjects of the Legion do have access to working electricity which does show that they do have infrastructure but given how small their subject population is its obvious that even this degree of infrastructure is practically non-existent at best especially when compared to the Republic's. Another point is how Dale Barton acquired Howitzer that he sold to the Legion. He didn't build it himself in a factory no he SCAVENGED it from the wreckage of a Pre-War military base in Yuma so once again my point is made. Cheers.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I find this unfair because it ignores ENTIRELY the different starting positions of the two groups. The NCR started in heavily urbanized area, surrounded by groups that were decently advanced and had easy access to scavenged technology. Also, many of the people living in the area were educated and had some knowledge on technological matters. Caesar was basically one educated man in the midst of hundreds of tribals who survived in a virtual desert with very little ruined towns. I find that alone, and in 34 years he was able to create a threatening, powerful and strong empire that rivaled the NCR (at least in terms of military) from squabbling tribes as mighty impressive.

Also, the NCR does their fair share of scavenging, extorting and trading.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

I find this unfair because it ignores ENTIRELY the different starting positions of the two groups. The NCR started in heavily urbanized area, surrounded by groups that were decently advanced and had easy access to scavenged technology. Also, many of the people living in the area were educated and had some knowledge on technological matters. Caesar was basically one educated man in the midst of hundreds of tribals who survived in a virtual desert with very little ruined towns. I find that alone, and in 34 years he was able to create a threatening, powerful and strong empire that rivaled the NCR (at least in terms of military) from squabbling tribes as mighty impressive.

Also, the NCR does their fair share of scavenging, extorting and trading.

Look I'm not trying to make the Legion seem like a bunch of savages, alright as I'll admit that yes what Caesar did to pacify Arizona is very impressive indeed and the Legion does more or less have the potential to become one of the greatest nations in existence. But that potential can only be realized if the Legion returns its focus East and abandons its claim on Hoover Dam and the Mojave. As I explained earlier, the NCR WILL be the death of the Legion with or without the Courier's help as only through the Courier can the Legion possibly hope to take Hoover Dam otherwise they're boned because as I've also already explained the NCR will win the Second Battle of Hoover Dam by default even without the intervention of the Courier not to mention that there's absolutely no chance in hell of a canonical Legion victory at Hoover Dam as I've also already explained. Caesar has ultimately condemned the Legion to its doom by choosing the war path against the Republic especially given that the Legion is simply just too young and underdeveloped to engage in war with the NCR at this time. It'll be the last mistake Caesar ever makes in the end. His pride, greed and obsession with New Vegas will be his downfall and the end of the Legion. The NCR does in fact scavenge, true (especially since the armored suits worn by NCR Heavy Troopers and the Republic's Vertibirds are all scavenged weapons in the Republic's arsenal) and the Republic was actually founded as a result of trade alliances so I'll agree with you on this. And as much as it scars my ego yes the Republic can be extortionate at times, true. But, when compared to Caesar's Legion and just about every other faction in the Fallout universe, the NCR is a Paragon of ethical character though it is far from perfect of course nonetheless it's the best choice for the eventual return of civilization and the eventual unification of mankind. As for the Legion being able to threaten the Republic that only applies to their expeditionary force in the Mojave and even then the only thing keeping this one expeditionary force from completely obliterating the Legion is the good old-fashioned red tape of bureaucracy and the incompetence of that horse's ass General Oliver, nothing more (though even with these problems the Republic can still defeat the Legion as I explained earlier). Say that Oliver died of ass cancer immediately after the First Battle of Hoover Dam and Col. James Hsu over at Camp McCarran was promoted to General in his place. The NCR would be occupying Flagstaff by now and Caesar would be swinging from a tree, his Legion in ruins. That's just the reality of the situation I'm afraid. The sooner people accept it, the better off we'll all be. Cheers.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

How is collecting tribute "corruption" exactly?

You're the one that referred to the "tribute" as a shakedown, which implies swindling or extortion. That's what a shakedown is. If you meant tribute, why didn't you just say so without the innuendo?

Christ, man.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

You're the one that referred to the "tribute" as a shakedown, which implies swindling or extortion. That's what a shakedown is. If you meant tribute, why didn't you just say so without the innuendo?

Christ, man.

I used innuendo because the "tribute" is in fact government-sponsored extortion albeit extortion for the greater good rather than greed or corruption as I explained to you earlier. "Shakedown" by no means implies "swindling" or "corruption" it just means that they take the "tribute" whether you like it or not and will kill you if you get in their way. It's government-sponsored extortion because the people have no choice in the matter whatsoever unless they want to end up on a cross or with their head on a pike. You just jump to conclusions too quickly.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

"Shakedown" by no means implies "swindling" or "corruption"

Yes it does, it's the very definition of the term.

It's government-sponsored extortion because the people have no choice in the matter whatsoever unless they want to end up on a cross or with their head on a pike.

If you have an example of a functioning society that has existed without some form of taxation, now is the time to share.

At least under Caesar, you get to live in an environment that is purported to be the safest and most stable, more so than NCR territory. Also, you never hear a peep--in-game, from developers, or otherwise--about the Legion extorting its people. Quite the contrary, this type of behavior is punishable by death. The Legion may be brutal, but they are fair to their subjects, damned efficient, and have easily earned whatever meager tribute they may require as far I'm concerned.

NCR, on the other hand, are the ones with the reputation for charging exorbitant taxes yet failing to properly represent their citizenry. They can barely protect their own territory, make matters worse thru their inept bungling (Camp Guardian, Powder Gangers), and on top of all that corruption runs rampant (Heck Gunderson, Cass and the "stop tolls"--AKA shakedowns). What the fuck are they paying these assholes for?

When it comes to so-called "government-sponsored extortion" NCR is easily and by far the worst of the two in this regard.

 

[Izak]

You keep comparing the second largest continent in the world with far greater natural resources and arable farmland to the world's smallest continent that depends on importing natural resources to sustain itself which makes no sense.

Fine.
North America Total Surface Area: 24.71 million km²
Africa Total Surface Area: 30.22 million km²
North American population: 528.7 million
African population: 1.111 billion
An 18% difference in surface area accounts for a 52% percent difference in population, North America is a hell of a lot more industrialized then Africa and the size difference is negligible when compared to the population difference. Should North America not have more people going by your logic?

The NCR is far larger than the Legion, controlling everything from Oregon down to the Baja peninsula as well as all of Nevada (as the Republic fully controls the New Reno and Carson area, is confirmed by Jed Masterson in Nevada to have had Rangers up in the I-80 in the very north of Nevada before the war with the Legion and is confirmed by Ulysses to have used New Canaan up in Utah as a supply line (before its destruction) alongside the Divide (before the Divide Incident) and currently the Long 15 not to mention that the NCR currently occupies the Mojave Wasteland which is the southernmost tip of Nevada all of which confirms that the Republic has the entire state of Nevada under their control albeit most of it is lawless frontier as of now) and even possesses territory in Arizona at Bullhead City and the surrounding area whilst the Legion only has Arizona (save the Bullhead City area) and parts of southeastern Utah, parts of western New Mexico and parts of of southern and eastern Colorado up to Denver though only Arizona can ultimately be factored into the Legion's overall strength (I'll explain if you like).

Their grip on Baja is tenuous, practically a facade, really. They can't exactly count the denizens of Vegas as NCR citizens, irregardless of their occupational force.

so you're point regarding that just because underdeveloped nations outnumber developed nations today then the Legion can outnumber the NCR is moot at best.

The Legion's only existed for 30 or so years but the tribes they conquered existed long before that, ranging back to the Great War, time's quite irrelevant in that regard.

Once again, the NCR far outnumbers the Legion.

Again, irregardless of anything, this is speculation, until the developers say otherwise.

(and it does as I've explained it's the only realistic means of acquiring enough precious metals to keep their currency from inflating regardless of whether or not the link says it)

You realize mining exists, right?

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Yes it does, it's the very definition of the term.



If you have an example of a functioning society that has existed without some form of taxation, now is the time to share.

At least under Caesar, you get to live in an environment that is purported to be the safest and most stable, more so than NCR territory. Also, you never hear a peep--in-game, from developers, or otherwise--about the Legion extorting its people. Quite the contrary, this type of behavior is punishable by death. The Legion may be brutal, but they are fair to their subjects, damned efficient, and have easily earned whatever meager tribute they may require as far I'm concerned.

NCR, on the other hand, are the ones with the reputation for charging exorbitant taxes yet failing to properly represent their citizenry. They can barely protect their own territory, make matters worse thru their inept bungling (Camp Guardian, Powder Gangers), and on top of all that corruption runs rampant (Heck Gunderson, Cass and the "stop tolls"--AKA shakedowns). What the fuck are they paying these assholes for?

When it comes to so-called "government-sponsored extortion" NCR is easily and by far the worst of the two in this regard.

OK now I definitely know that you have no idea what you're talking about. The NCR can more than easily defend their territory, most particularly the Core Regions. The Core Regions of the Republic are safer than they've ever been, with the Raiders either being killed off or chased off (Jas Wilkins over at Sloan says this herself) not to mention that Rose of Sharon Cassidy even says and I quote "roads back West were safer than most places...... most". So the Republic apparently can't protect its own territory but two people that are from the Core Regions say otherwise. True, Legion territories are much safer than Republic territory but even so your claim that the NCR can't protect its own territory is bullshit at best. The Mojave is not even Republic territory yet, it's land on the frontier of the Republic that the NCR government largely ignores so if you're trying to judge the ENTIRE NCR off of this then you have some serious issues. Furthermore, the "stop tolls" are the result of SOME corrupt NCR quartermasters abusing their positions to make a little extra on the side and are in no way sanctioned by the NCR government thus your claim that they're "government-sponsored extortion" is also bullshit. Also the rank of quartermaster is strictly a MILITARY position and you'll only see military personnel conducting trade in the FRONTIER of Republic territory, areas outside of direct Republic control thus these "stop tolls" are exclusive ONLY to the Mojave and not the whole of NCR territory as you seem to suggest. And to further destroy your point the NCR does in fact quickly and efficiently secure and restore order to the Mojave upon its annexation into the Republic after their second victory at Hoover Dam (which is default with or without the Courier's intervention) with the Fiends, Powder Gangers and every other Raider tribe being wiped out completely by the Republic if the Courier didn't do so already and the NCR establishing definitive control over the entirety of the Mojave Wasteland, with all major communities becoming prosperous trade centers and thriving under Republic sovereignty (though NCR taxation does cause problems) so once again you're full of shit. Say what you like but the Legion's acquisition of "tribute" is in fact government-sponsored extortion. Just as Mafia racket businesses are forced to pay their "protectors" large sums of money lest the owner ends up severely maimed and/or killed so too does the Legion demand tribute from its subjects lest they be put to the sword and/or enslaved. Extortion in bright, shining lights my friend not "taxation" (unless what the Mafia does to its racket businesses is "taxation" as well). OFFICIAL Republic taxation is by no means "extortionate" in any form or fashion. Name me one time that a corrupt NCR quartermaster beheaded someone and placed their head on pike for refusing to pay a "stop toll". Name me one time that the Republic butchered and/or enslaved a town because it refused to pay taxes. Name me one time that the Republic ever even threatened harm on someone for refusing to pay taxes. Once again not "extortion" but legitimate taxation. In Goodsprings' NCR ending a few old timers that were unable to handle Republic taxation simply left the town the NCR didn't execute them, main them or even threaten them they let them leave whilst the Legion would've crucified them instead. In Primm, Lt. Hayes and his men didn't forcefully annex the town, and kill anyone that resisted they allowed to town to remain independent and even when Primm accepts Republic annexation of its own accord the NCR tells them beforehand that they have to become registered citizens of the Republic and pay any and all associated taxes they don't hide anything from them or twist their arm in any way and are even willing to accept Primm declining annexation into the Republic and taking a different sheriff whilst the Legion would DEMAND the absolute submission of Primm and would put them to the sword and/or enslave them if they refused. Who's extortionate now, hmm? Get your facts straight, just saying just saying.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Ugh... one, the Legion can and almost did win Hoover Dam. Only through the tactical experience of the NCR did they avert a Legion victory, though Caesar has solved this problem through the choice of Lanius as Legate, who while brutal is also extremely cunning. Even though you can assume as much as you like, looking at the ACTUAL history presented IN game shows that the Legion almost won Hoover Dam, meaning that no matter what you propose, unless the NCR gets outside help the Legion can beat them in the second battle of Hoover Dam.
Mentions the NCR can keep their territories safe and Primm in the same post. You realize that the NCR abandon Primm if the Legion wins, even though the Legion has limited access to that area (either you cross mountains full of mutants and ghouls (west), mountains full of Deathclaws and Cazadores (north) or a small bottleneck (south) meaning that if the NCR wanted to they could easily hold it? Also, you're ignoring the many endings where the NCR are consistently mentioned as heavily taxing locals, while the Legion is mentioned as being controlling but... that's it. In the endings, as long as there's no opposition it's not mentioned if the Legion does anything bad or ruthless while it is mentioned for the NCR. In FACT, the Legion straight out ignores Goodsprings providing MORE freedom then they would have under the NCR which mentions '...that came a heavy burden of the Republic's taxes...'. Also, Caesar offers peace and gratitude to the Kings if they acted against the NCR which is rejected.

Primm is ambigious, because it mentions that '...Though Primm's citizens chafe under NCR's taxes...' it also states that '... they benefit greatly from the increased protection and merchant traffic...'. Also on the Legion side it says that '...Though Caesar keeps Primm open for business...' it also says 'its citizens live under the constant watch of Legion soldiers.' Make of that what you will.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Fine.
North America Total Surface Area: 24.71 million km²
Africa Total Surface Area: 30.22 million km²
North American population: 528.7 million
African population: 1.111 billion
An 18% difference in surface area accounts for a 52% percent difference in population, North America is a hell of a lot more industrialized then Africa and the size difference is negligible when compared to the population difference. Should North America not have more people going by your logic?

Their grip on Baja is tenuous, practically a facade, really. They can't exactly count the denizens of Vegas as NCR citizens, irregardless of their occupational force.

The Legion's only existed for 30 or so years but the tribes they conquered existed long before that, ranging back to the Great War, time's quite irrelevant in that regard.

Again, irregardless of anything, this is speculation, until the developers say otherwise.

You realize mining exists, right?

Mining exists in REPUBLIC territory not Legion territory. Legion coin is made from SCAVENGED gold and silver not mined gold and silver http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Legion_coinage. The Republic has gold mines in Redding, that's confirmed. Name one mine in Legion territory. The Republic has been present in the Baja peninsula since before Hanlon became Chief of the NCR Rangers and even before the Republic ever stepped foot in the Mojave which is DECADES ago. The Republic's control in Baja is definitely strong by now unless you can prove otherwise. Buddy, tribes never even get that big with large tribes barely numbering up to several hundred people maximum. Furthermore, do you have any idea what the Legion does to the tribes it conquers? They tear them apart completely and eradicate the very fact that they ever even existed: men and boys are taken in as slave soldiers, the women and girls are taken in as breeding stock and the rest are put to the sword. That's more than half of a tribe being wiped out my friend. Also, out of the 87 tribes the Legion has conquered only 79 were actually assimilated (the Ridgers, the Twin Mothers and 5 of the 19 tribes that Lanius conquered were all exterminated with the 87th tribe being too recent of a conquest to factor into the Legion's overall strength as even Caesar himself isn't aware of its conquest not to mention whether or not it was assimilated or exterminated is currently unknown) which drains the Legion's strength even further. Then we go to the First Battle of Hoover Dam in which the NCR nearly completely destroyed the Legion (which at the time was 66 tribes) with only the Divide Incident saving them from what would've been their final destruction at the hands of the Republic, depleting the Legion's strength even further. Then we add the fact that Legionaries have an extremely low life expectancy (in the Legion just surviving 10 years is considered an achievement), the fact that lacking any form of modern medicine or even any actual qualified medical personnel would result in very high mortality rates, very high infant mortality rates and an overall very high death rate for the Legion as a whole, the fact that most trainees of the Legion DIE before they ever even become Legionaries (in the Legion there's no such thing as washing out or quitting you're either in it to win it or you die trying; if you're too weak you're put to the sword if you fail you're put to the sword as only the strongest are deemed as worthy of the Legion's ranks with the weak ultimately perishing in the end) and the fact that the Legion's lack of any real infrastructure and its total lack of industry and agriculture would ultimately serve to stagnate its population growth by a massive margin and even worsen the Legion's already very high overall death rate (the underdeveloped nations you keep speaking of happen to have far higher death rates than developed nations just so you know) and guess what, the Legion's far outnumbered by the Republic. I love how you went from comparing Europe to Africa to comparing North America and Africa, a good way to change goalposts. Also, what's with you in trying to compare entire continents anyways when you should be comparing California to Arizona, especially given that these are the areas that both the NCR and Legion currently control, were both born in and established their foundations in. California in the present is far larger than Arizona (being the third largest state in the country behind Alaska and Texas), is considered a technological powerhouse (especially the Silicon Valley area), is renowned for its industry and is world-famous for its collosal agricultural output with a population of 38.6 million. Arizona, on the other hand, is far smaller than California and is definitely far behind California in the fields of industry, agriculture and technology with a population of 6.7 million. Also it's as I said earlier, more people were bound to survive the Great War in California than in Arizona not to mention that while the Republic was already a superpower by 2241 while the tribes of Arizona were still tearing each other apart with Raiders running rampant and even civilized towns going at each other's throats all of which would serve to stagnate population growth in Arizona even further (and it doesn't exactly help your case any that the tribes that the Legion conquered were grossly primitive even by post-apocalyptic standards which is even worse than the underdeveloped nations of the real world that you love referencing so much which also further decreases the overall strength of the Legion) so once again, the Republic far outnumbers the Legion (P.S. I know that all we can do is speculate as of now until the developers hit us with concrete evidence but if they were here, then they'd definitely be agreeing with me right now), cheers.

 

[Dr Fallout]

The Republic has been present in the Baja peninsula since before Hanlon became Chief of the NCR Rangers and even before the Republic ever stepped foot in the Mojave which is DECADES ago. The Republic's control in Baja is definitely strong by now unless you can prove otherwise.

Dude, you realize that HANLON mentions that Kimball has sent the most experienced Rangers to Baja, for reasons he mentions as 'complicated'. Also, I love the irony of how your username has Hanlon even though he says a lot to show up the NCR war effort as weak and unprepared.

 

[Izak]

Name one mine in Legion territory.

We've never been to Legion territory, almost everything we know about their civilization is up in the air. As far as we know the Legion has the best mines in the world.

The Republic's control in Baja is definitely strong by now unless you can prove otherwise.

Hanlon said there was a single NCR settlement on the southern tip of Baja, a shack town named Rattletail. Rattletail was evacuated when Hanlon made up stories about a horde of raiders coming to sack it, the President then sent a couple of Rangers to kill the supposedly hostile raiders. That's the NCR presence in Mexico, a couple of scattered Rangers.

tribes never even get that big with large tribes barely numbering up to several hundred people maximum.

87 (from my faulty memory) tribes have been conquered, as well as several cities and a bunch of civilized towns. You shouldn't presume to know the size of tribes, the original tribes of America (excluding the Aztecs and what not) were fucking mammoth.

with only the Divide Incident saving them from what would've been their final destruction at the hands of the Republic, depleting the Legion's strength even further.

Yet they're ready to go toe to toe with the NCR by New Vegas, and most of the NCR is genuinely frightened about a possible victory by the Legion. Shit, by New Vegas Caesar and Lanius (who aren't the worst tacticians in the Fallout universe) are excited about a possible complete takeover of the NCR.

the fact that the Legion's lack of any real infrastructure and its total lack of industry and agriculture

You're assuming too much about a culture we haven't properly seen, did you get this from the 3 forts we see in New Vegas that make up the entirety of Legion territory in that game?

I love how you went from comparing Europe to Africa to comparing North America and Africa, a good way to change goalposts.

You were the one that complained about me comparing Europe and Africa, I changed it to something more suitable, given North America's large surface area and agricultural industry.

Also, what's with you in trying to compare entire continents anyways when you should be comparing California to Arizona, especially given that these are the areas that both the NCR and Legion currently control, were both born in and established their foundations in.

You made it sound as though population was dependent upon industrial buildup and total area, comparing two continents like North America and Africa disproves that.
It's pointless to compare Arizona and California considering they're both hit by a volley of nukes in Fallout, it's completely impossible for me to guess at what their respective populations were after that.

more people were bound to survive the Great War in California than in Arizona

Because being a bigger target makes it easier to survive nuclear war?

the Republic was already a superpower by 2241

If by superpower you mean having a hostile power to their East and a city-state that doesn't give a shit about them sitting right next to them, then yes, though Super-powers are supposed to actually have influence over other nations.

and it doesn't exactly help your case any that the tribes that the Legion conquered were grossly primitive even by post-apocalyptic standards

Well, given that the Legion's imitating the Romans, I'd say that that's a pretty regular thing for them to do.

I know that all we can do is speculate as of now until the developers hit us with concrete evidence but if they were here, then they'd definitely be agreeing with me right now

Your omniscience is startling.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Ugh... one, the Legion can and almost did win Hoover Dam. Only through the tactical experience of the NCR did they avert a Legion victory, though Caesar has solved this problem through the choice of Lanius as Legate, who while brutal is also extremely cunning. Even though you can assume as much as you like, looking at the ACTUAL history presented IN game shows that the Legion almost won Hoover Dam, meaning that no matter what you propose, unless the NCR gets outside help the Legion can beat them in the second battle of Hoover Dam. If anything, they're projected

Mentions the NCR can keep their territories safe and Primm in the same post. You realize that the NCR abandon Primm if the Legion wins, even though the Legion has limited access to that area (either you cross mountains full of mutants and ghouls (west), mountains full of Deathclaws and Cazadores (north) or a small bottleneck (south) meaning that if the NCR wanted to they could easily hold it? Also, you're ignoring the many endings where the NCR are consistently mentioned as heavily taxing locals, while the Legion is mentioned as being controlling but... that's it. In the endings, as long as there's no opposition it's not mentioned if the Legion does anything bad or ruthless while it is mentioned for the NCR. In FACT, the Legion straight out ignores Goodsprings providing MORE freedom then they would have under the NCR which mentions '...that came a heavy burden of the Republic's taxes...'. Also, Caesar offers peace and gratitude to the Kings if they acted against the NCR which is rejected.

Primm is ambigious, because it mentions that '...Though Primm's citizens chafe under NCR's taxes...' it also states that '... they benefit greatly from the increased protection and merchant traffic...'. Also on the Legion side it says that '...Though Caesar keeps Primm open for business...' it also says 'its citizens live under the constant watch of Legion soldiers.' Make of that what you will.

Oh great, another bleeding heart Legion fanboy. First of all the Legion didn't even come close to winning the First Battle of Hoover Dam as Hanlon explains the battle in full detail which I'll explain to you as well in full detail: when the then-Malpais Legate launched his assault on Hoover Dam General Oliver, who was caught completely flat-footed, pulled his Troopers back to the center of the Dam where they entrenched themselves and established a defensive perimeter in anticipation of an imminent attack. Joshua Graham then ordered all of his forces (which were using the basic Legion formation of Recruits in the front and Veterans in the rear) to charge across the Dam and eradicate the NCR's defenses, an act that ended up trapping his forces on the eastern side of the Dam. Oliver and the Troopers repelled wave after wave of Recruits and Primes not giving up an inch of ground to the enemy. Hanlon, along with First Recon and Ranger sharpshooter-skirmisher teams, saw an opportunity and set up sniping positions on the western ridge overlooking the Dam, picking off all the Centurions and Decanii from afar, an act that threw the Legion into total chaos. Unable to coordinate or alter his strategies, Graham quickly discovered the source of the problem as Hanlon and his sharpshooters started picking off his Veterans. Graham then ordered his Veteran formations to push forward past the Recruits and Primes and through the Troopers' positions and rush the western ridge so as to suppress Hanlon's sniper fire. Oliver and the Troopers stepped aside towards the sidewalk ways of the Dam as the Veterans pushed forward towards the western ridge (an act that disintegrated what little semblance of order remained in the Legion's ranks), letting them pass and resuming the fight for control of the Dam with the now completely disoriented Recruits and Primes. The Veterans eventually reached the ridge but by then Hanlon and his men were in Boulder City. Expecting to finally corner and wipe out Hanlon and his men, the Veterans charged into Boulder City, realizing too late that Hanlon was nowhere to be found and that the entire city had been rigged to blow with just about every explosive known to man. The few that survived the resulting explosion were quickly finished off by Hanlon and his men. Graham soon realized that he'd been defeated but before he could order the retreat Oliver and the Troopers launched a full-scale counter-offensive against the surviving Recruits and Primes on the Dam and routed them back across the Dam and into Arizona. Hanlon's own personal accounts of the battle more or less coalesce with my description I'll even pull his dialogue files out to prove it if I have to so get you're facts straight little fanboy. Wow, you're only logic is "Lanius is a badass, bro the Legion's automatically going to win because of this fact and this fact alone) which does absolutely nothing to debunk anything I said about the NCR being the default victor of the Second Battle of Hoover Dam in the event the Courier died in Goodsprings, all of which is reinforced by lore, in-game elements and reality so unless you present a real case you're royally boned in this field. Also, what exactly automatically projects a Legion victory at Hoover Dam in the event the Courier died in Goodsprings? Nelson (which only fell because the fortifications here were just barely being established at the time not to mention that the Troopers here were still waiting on their Service Rifles and body armor when the Legion attacked otherwise Dead Sea and his men would've been shitstomped)? Nipton (the four Troopers here were drugged and kidnapped by the Powder Gangers before Vulpes Inculta staged his "lottery" and Vulpes even says himself that had he and his men encountered organized resistance in Nipton then they would've been killed as they were outnumbered by a wide margin)? Camp Searchlight (Vulpes says himself that the reason why he bombed Searchlight was because a frontal assault by the Legion would've been crushed as the area was too well-defended and too easy to defend as well)? Or let me guess, the bombing of the Camp McCarran monorail which would only prevent the NCR from reinforcing the Strip in time for the Omertas' coup d'etat and ultimately have no effect on the Second Battle of Hoover Dam whatsoever? The assassination of President Kimball, which is only intended to further demoralize the NCR occupation forces in the Mojave and won't even effect the Republic's defense of Hoover Dam at all? All of this was just minor acts of terror that was only engineered to chip away at NCR morale and prove nothing at all whatsoever. Once again, very weak point little fanboy keep trying. And I did mention Republic taxation in both Goodsprings and Primm so get your shit straight little fanboy. The Legion peacefully occupies Primm because the people there submitted without a fight otherwise they would've been put to the sword and/or enslaved just like Siri's town was and they leave Goodsprings alone as its worthless to them so bringing up their Legion endings helps you none at all little fanboy. And the NCR abandons Primm because 1). in the event General Oliver was killed (and he won't be) the NCR's chain of command would collapse and standard NCR military doctrine in this event is to withdraw and regroup or 2.) General Oliver orders a retreat to withdraw and regroup his forces in accordance with standard NCR military doctrine so this proves nothing little fanboy. Cheers.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Ugh, I would love debating you but the fucking wall of text... also who do you support in the game?

1. 'Little fanboy' I think you need to relax a little, you're combative and acting like an asshole. It's a fictional game in which the developers lacked the time to properly depict the Legion, not real history.
2. The Battle of Hoover Dam was lost because Graham was inflexible and lost control. The entire battle hinged on the Legion giving chase which was not correctly countermanded by Graham. If the Legion didn't give the chase they wouldn't have been caught at Boulder Town, in which case they would have still held Hoover Dam, and the NCR would require to have spent even more men to kick them out. Also, without Hoover Dam in their control Vegas and the NCR which relies heavily on its power would have been weakened leading to a possible overall Legion victory. The charge into Boulder city was useless and tactically incompetent which is why I support Caesar's termination of Graham, and replacement by Lanius who is mentioned in the game as a cunning and brutal commander.
3. All these things are minor yes, but together they create a unified and negative effect on the NCR. Also, you may dismiss morale but keep in mind that the only thing that kept the NCR war effort TOGETHER was funding from the NCR which if you've listened to Hanlon, was in the dire threat of being cut off due to being hated by the general populace. These losses would have made the war effort even more unpopular, which would have meant the NCR army there would lack support or even be slowly taken out if the elections go against the war effort.
4. ... What? You ignore all clear, obvious examples of the Legion not being dicks over NCR propagated rumours and speculations (and assertions). Also, I know that Primm is spared because they don't fight back. That's logical for all armies.

Honestly, arguing with someone who claims that the NCR won't lose because... actually mind proving that? Or do you mind linking an earlier post... 'little fanboy'. XD

 

[zegh8578]

This is dumb, and you guys should have ignored him a long time ago.
He is litterally trying to text-wall you to death.

Seriously though, anyone who takes something meant to be interpreted by the authors, for then to insist there is NO interpretation = a douchebag.

As a player, you are supposed to choose a side, and the devs have DELIBERATELY given each side a bunch of "pros and cons" - maybe they are not 100% balanced, but he then insists that "the devs would agree with me". By this time I call loony-bin, seriously. Annoying.

(Just the fact that he doesn't realize that nobody else writes walls of stupid text annoys me. Either he is totally oblivious to it = a moron. Or he sincerely believes the ammount of text-wall gives him more credibility/we are too dumb to create walls of text = a moron)

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

We've never been to Legion territory, almost everything we know about their civilization is up in the air. As far as we know the Legion has the best mines in the world.

Hanlon said there was a single NCR settlement on the southern tip of Baja, a shack town named Rattletail. Rattletail was evacuated when Hanlon made up stories about a horde of raiders coming to sack it, the President then sent a couple of Rangers to kill the supposedly hostile raiders. That's the NCR presence in Mexico, a couple of scattered Rangers.

87 (from my faulty memory) tribes have been conquered, as well as several cities and a bunch of civilized towns. You shouldn't presume to know the size of tribes, the original tribes of America (excluding the Aztecs and what not) were fucking mammoth.

Yet they're ready to go toe to toe with the NCR by New Vegas, and most of the NCR is genuinely frightened about a possible victory by the Legion. Shit, by New Vegas Caesar and Lanius (who aren't the worst tacticians in the Fallout universe) are excited about a possible complete takeover of the NCR.

You're assuming too much about a culture we haven't properly seen, did you get this from the 3 forts we see in New Vegas that make up the entirety of Legion territory in that game.

You were the one that complained about me comparing Europe and Africa, I changed it to something more suitable, given North America's large surface area and agricultural industry.

You made it sound as though population was dependent upon industrial buildup and total area, comparing two continents like North America and Africa disproves that.
It's pointless to compare Arizona and California considering they're both hit by a volley of nukes in Fallout, it's completely impossible for me to guess at what their respective populations were after that.

Because being a bigger target makes it easier to survive nuclear war?

If by superpower you mean having a hostile power to their East and a city-state that doesn't give a shit about them sitting right next to them, then yes, though Super-powers are supposed to actually have influence over other nations.

Well, given that the Legion's imitating the Romans, I'd say that that's a pretty regular thing for them to do.

Your omniscience is startling.

It's called "arrogance". Caesar has absolutely no idea what he's doing whatsoever, and is ultimately dooming his Legion to extinction at the hands of the Republic which, as I explained earlier, will be the default victor of the Second Battle of Hoover Dam even without Courier intervention. Lanius has always had second thoughts regarding the Legion's conquest of the Mojave and the NCR (which will never happen as I've already explained) this is evidenced by his Barter and non-bluff Speech checks in which he confides in the Courier revealing these doubts and second thoughts. Lanius just keeps them to himself because Caesar's will is the will of the Legion and he lives to serve Caesar's will not to mention that he literally worships Caesar as a god and even more so than his Legion compatriots. Me "assume"? Everything I've said is fully-backed and completely reinforced by lore, in-game elements and reality. I've done nothing but hammer you and your entire argument with concrete evidence and facts that have more than demolished your points. You're the one who's assuming, as you're only logic is "well if underdeveloped nations outnumber developed nations today then the Legion can outnumber the NCR just because I said so". You've presented no facts at all whatsoever and have done nothing but change goalposts and rant on and on with little more than speculation. I made a perfect comparison between California and Arizona using real-world facts as well as in-game elements and lore something that you have failed to do because you simply just can't accept the truth, the facts for what they are. I even gave you a link that PROVED that the Legion lacks any mining whatsoever and you just brushed it under the rug like it was never there just like you've done with all my other evidence. You try and pretend it's not there and keep trying to prop up you're already-defeated argument though it's already a lost cause. And Hanlon's escapade in Baja was DECADES before the events of Fallout: New Vegas furthermore Hanlon says that Veteran Rangers are "chasing ghosts in Baja" as of now meaning that they're actually chasing nothing or no one at all. Kimball has them in Baja just so he can buy his dear old friend Lee Oliver some time to defeat the Legion single-handedly so that he can take full credit for the victory. Cheers.

 

[zegh8578]

And stop saying "Cheers" after each post.

Look, genius, god, seriously, it's not even about "YES, the Legion is BETTER" - I don't give a shit, because THEY AREN'T REAL!
They are the creative product of authors, they are fictious, and they are MEANT to be interpreted. YOU interpret them ONE WAY, and that is FINE - your problem is that you then go on to IMPOSE your interpretation on everybody - for then to insult them for not agreeing.

What the hell is wrong with you!??

I agree that the NCR would win, because Los Angeles has a much higher population density and all that crap, but still - fuck off dude... Learn to behave!

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Ugh, I would love debating you but the fucking wall of text... also who do you support in the game?

1. 'Little fanboy' I think you need to relax a little, you're combative and acting like an asshole. It's a fictional game in which the developers lacked the time to properly depict the Legion, not real history.
2. The Battle of Hoover Dam was lost because Graham was inflexible and lost control. The entire battle hinged on the Legion giving chase which was not correctly countermanded by Graham. If the Legion didn't give the chase they wouldn't have been caught at Boulder Town, in which case they would have still held Hoover Dam, and the NCR would require to have spent even more men to kick them out. Also, without Hoover Dam in their control Vegas and the NCR which relies heavily on its power would have been weakened leading to a possible overall Legion victory. The charge into Boulder city was useless and tactically incompetent which is why I support Caesar's termination of Graham, and replacement by Lanius who is mentioned in the game as a cunning and brutal commander.
3. All these things are minor yes, but together they create a unified and negative effect on the NCR. Also, you may dismiss morale but keep in mind that the only thing that kept the NCR war effort TOGETHER was funding from the NCR which if you've listened to Hanlon, was in the dire threat of being cut off due to being hated by the general populace. These losses would have made the war effort even more unpopular, which would have meant the NCR army there would lack support or even be slowly taken out if the elections go against the war effort.
4. ... What? You ignore all clear, obvious examples of the Legion not being dicks over NCR propagated rumours and speculations (and assertions). Also, I know that Primm is spared because they don't fight back. That's logical for all armies.

Honestly, arguing with someone who claims that the NCR won't lose because... actually mind proving that? Or do you mind linking an earlier post... 'little fanboy'. XD

I proved it in an earlier post with Bubba Zanetti and explained how they'd win in FULL DETAIL. We both know you read it you're just trying to ignore it little fanboy. Also, did you hit your head or something, really little fanboy? House confirms that in the event Kimball were to be assassinated, he would be martyred by the NCR military and the citizens of the Republic back West. His militant expansionist foreign policy would be vindicated and the NCR's occupation of the Mojave would be strengthened which is why House wants the Courier to protect Kimball so that the opposite would happen and Kimball would be held responsible for the NCR's defeat in the Mojave which in turn would result in the NCR military losing popular support back home and the end of Kimball's imperialist foreign policy. The people of the Republic will whole-heartedly support a war of vengeance against the Legion and the Republic Senate will throw their full support behind the war effort as well, ending your little wet dream of a Legion victory little fanboy. The only logic you've presented is "but bro, Lanius is such a badass, the Legion e can't possibly lose because he's so badass", which I've more than easily debunked so many times already little fanboy. Try again.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

And stop saying "Cheers" after each post.

Look, genius, god, seriously, it's not even about "YES, the Legion is BETTER" - I don't give a shit, because THEY AREN'T REAL!
They are the creative product of authors, they are fictious, and they are MEANT to be interpreted. YOU interpret them ONE WAY, and that is FINE - your problem is that you then go on to IMPOSE your interpretation on everybody - for then to insult them for not agreeing.

What the hell is wrong with you!??

I agree that the NCR would win, because Los Angeles has a much higher population density and all that crap, but still - fuck off dude... Learn to behave!

No shit they're not real, smart ass. The whole point of debate is to crush your opponent's argument, not pull this "personal interpretation" horseshit right when you know you'll lose. And I clearly have a lot more crushing to do. Cheers.

 

[zegh8578]

No shit they're not real, smart ass. The whole point of debate is to crush your opponent's argument, not pull this "personal interpretation" horseshit right when you know you'll lose. And I clearly have a lot more crushing to do. Cheers.

But it IS up for interpretation, because there is no solid evidence to test against - because - and I repeat - it's a fictional universe, with fictional factions and fictional characters, fictional demographics and fictional people, and the point of the game you are debating about - is to INTERPRET the sides, and pick one. If the whole point was that NCR is universally best, the game would be ABOUT NCR, and the other options would be an obvious failure. They're not. All options end with game victory, because the game opens for each option as being correct. This seems lost on you.
You are in a minority here. You, and you alone.

You can INTERPRET this as following:
You're utterly wrong.
OR
You're the hero humanity has been waiting for (which makes you Don Quixote of NMA)

You are also probably no older than 15. This is not a "you're 15 cus you're wrong" but my way of telling you: You are arguing with adults here, who actually shave.