The Legion is the best option for the wasteland

[Dr Fallout]

I proved it in an earlier post with Bubba Zanetti and explained how they'd win in FULL DETAIL. We both know you read it you're just trying to ignore it little fanboy. Also, did you hit your head or something, really little fanboy? House confirms that in the event Kimball were to be assassinated, he would be martyred by the NCR military and the citizens of the Republic back West. His militant expansionist foreign policy would be vindicated and the NCR's occupation of the Mojave would be strengthened which is why House wants the Courier to protect Kimball so that the opposite would happen and Kimball would be held responsible for the NCR's defeat in the Mojave which in turn would result in the NCR military losing popular support back home and the end of Kimball's imperialist foreign policy. The people of the Republic will whole-heartedly support a war of vengeance against the Legion and the Republic Senate will throw their full support behind the war effort as well, ending your little wet dream of a Legion victory little fanboy. The only logic you've presented is "but bro, Lanius is such a badass, the Legion e can't possibly lose because he's so badass", which I've more than easily debunked so many times already little fanboy. Try again.

1. 'Little fanboy' Your humor astounds me.
2. 'Believes without doubt the veracity and honesty of an in-game character who has his own motives and beliefs.' Your trust astounds me.
3. 'Then makes a statement without any backing and states it as fact, ending with a condescending comment.' Your logic astounds.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

But it IS up for interpretation, because there is no solid evidence to test against - because - and I repeat - it's a fictional universe, with fictional factions and fictional characters, fictional demographics and fictional people, and the point of the game you are debating about - is to INTERPRET the sides, and pick one. If the whole point was that NCR is universally best, the game would be ABOUT NCR, and the other options would be an obvious failure. They're not. All options end with game victory, because the game opens for each option as being correct. This seems lost on you.
You are in a minority here. You, and you alone.

You can INTERPRET this as following:
You're utterly wrong.
OR
You're the hero humanity has been waiting for (which makes you Don Quixote of NMA)

You are also probably no older than 15. This is not a "you're 15 cus you're wrong" but my way of telling you: You are arguing with adults here, who actually shave.

I'm "wrong" yet none of you have even come close to discrediting anything I've said which is fully-backed by solid concrete facts and evidence which is turn completely reinforced by lore, in-game elements and reality as well as real world facts whilst I've literally annihilated, no obliterated all of your arguments with almost no effort at all. Then you pull this "personal interpretation" speech out because you're too afraid to admit that you're wrong and that I've proven you wrong. I admitted that I was wrong on one point in an argument with Bubba Zanetti no problem whatsoever whilst you try and hide behind this "personal interpretation" speech of yours. Defeat hurts I know but just face it: I won you lost. Cheers.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I'm "wrong" yet none of you have even come close to discrediting anything I've said which is fully-backed by solid concrete facts and evidence which is turn completely reinforced by lore, in-game elements and reality as well as real world facts whilst I've literally annihilated, no obliterated all of your arguments with almost no effort at all. Then you pull this "personal interpretation" speech out because you're too afraid to admit that you're wrong and that I've proven you wrong. I admitted that I was wrong on one point in an argument with Bubba Zanetti no problem whatsoever whilst you try and hide behind this "personal interpretation" speech of yours. Defeat hurts I know but just face it: I won you lost. Cheers.

1. 'States his argument has won, ignoring ours and then mentioning he has solid and concrete facts.' Your confidence and lack of understanding that there can be nothing concrete in a fictional universe astounds me.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Ni

1. 'Little fanboy' Your humor astounds me.
2. 'Believes without doubt the veracity and honesty of an in-game character who has his own motives and beliefs.' Your trust astounds me.
3. 'Then makes a statement without any backing and states it as fact, ending with a condescending comment.' Your logic astounds.

Nice description of yourself. I've already made my point now it's your turn to make an actual argument. Cheers. This is just too easy.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

1. 'States his argument has won, ignoring ours and then mentioning he has solid and concrete facts.' Your confidence and lack of understanding that there can be nothing concrete in a fictional universe astounds me.

Yet I've clearly proven otherwise, lol. There's no shame in admitting defeat, dude, none at all. Cheers.

 

[Dr Fallout]

Ni

Nice description of yourself. I've already made my point now it's your turn to make an actual argument. Cheers. This is just too easy.

1. 'Escapes the point by turning it around.' Your escape skills astound me.

Yet I've clearly proven otherwise, lol. There's no shame in admitting defeat, dude, none at all. Cheers.

2. 'Tries desperately hard at defeating us in argument for reasons unspecified.' Your weird tryhardy behavior astounds me.

 

[zegh8578]

Yet I've clearly proven otherwise, lol. There's no shame in admitting defeat, dude, none at all. Cheers.

Your work here is done. It's time to move on.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

1. 'Escapes the point by turning it around.' Your escape skills astound me.


2. 'Tries desperately hard at defeating us in argument for reasons unspecified.' Your weird tryhardy behavior astounds me.

You're already beaten, you just don't know when to quit is all. Don't worry, I can keep this up for as long as it takes. Cheers.

 

[Dr Fallout]

You're already beaten, you just don't know when to quit is all. Don't worry, I can keep this up for as long as it takes. Cheers.

1. 'Tries desperately hard at defeating us in argument for reasons unspecified.' Your weird tryhardy behavior astounds me.

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

Your work here is done. It's time to move on.

Yeah I've noticed. I gave up Skyrim debates because they were just too easy and I was hoping that this would be a challenge when clearly it wasn't. Disappointing really. Still I'm proud of myself for yet another victory. Cheers.

 

[zegh8578]

Yeah I've noticed. I gave up Skyrim debates because they were just too easy and I was hoping that this would be a challenge when clearly it wasn't. Disappointing really. Still I'm proud of myself for yet another victory. Cheers.

You clearly are a unique specimen, winning debate after debate, leaving nothing behind but smoldering destruction!
All hail you, who have yet to loose a single battle!
¡Hasta la victoria siempre!

 

[AradeshHanlon64]

You clearly are a unique specimen, winning debate after debate, leaving nothing behind but smoldering destruction!
All hail you, who have yet to loose a single battle!
¡Hasta la victoria siempre!

Real funny, smartass. Seriously though, I'm done. Need to find a real challenge anyways. Cheers.

 

[Izak]

I guess some people like to use internet forums to masturbate.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

I guess some people like to use internet forums to masturbate.

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[Gefilte Fish]

Real funny, smartass. Seriously though, I'm done. Need to find a real challenge anyways. Cheers.

Bye; you won't be missed. Also,

I guess some people like to use internet forums to masturbate.

Oh snap!

Anyway, to put my two cents on this thread, I prefer the Legion over the NCR (though the nothing beats going independent imo) and I must commend you guys, this debate was an entertaining read (wall-of-text-guy exempt).

 

[Risewild]

Real funny, smartass. Seriously though, I'm done. Need to find a real challenge anyways. Cheers.

When we live in our own little world that was created in our own little head, we always win. No matter what others say we will have the conviction that we have facts and know what the developers would say, doesn't matter if it is all made up in our little head.

I have seen no real facts besides "I know what the devs would say" or "I totally destroyed you guys" or even "I am right"...
I particularly enjoyed when something like this was said "The NCR wins with or without the Courier's intervention"... In case anyone didn't play Fallout New Vegas, the courier's intervention is what makes any side win... Saying NCR wins when the courier helped one of the other sides and made that side win in the game is just... Little world in a little head...

Why does NMA keep attracting these people that think their opinion is fact and should be imposed on other people's opinions? I guess trolls will always be trolls... Too bad even trolls these days suck compared to the old ones.

 

[GonZo_626]

Well time to chime in...

Best ending for New Vegas and area is the Courier eliminating House and playing both sides to build his/her own coalition of New Vegas and area residents.

Yes the Legion will provide state security at the cost of individual freedom (not worth it in my books), but does not seem to be very good at providing individual security as some Legionnaire can come and ask you to do anything no matter what and kill you if you don't. This pretty much is a police state and they don't have the greatest track record at improving life quality for people.

Next we have the NCR, an over bloated with administrators organization that has spread so fast that they can no longer provide state security at the fringes of its territory, this is why the Legion has been able to hand the NCR a few defeats as the quantity and quality of troops that are sent to New Vegas are low. Plus the NCR troops appear to have very bad morale and typically are easy to corrupt (I mean if my memory serves me right they are bribed into smuggling weapons onto the strip for the attack on one hotel). Also they don't seem to care much for individual freedom, but they are still worlds ahead of the legion in that regard.

House sees New Vegas as his little fiefdom and plans to rule it all with the fist of his robot army and destroy all in his way. So good for state security, and may be bad or good on the freedom and individual security.

None of these groups though have the best interests of the people of New Vegas in their thoughts, Its all about more power for me, me, me. The courier on the other hand goes around and organizes these groups into helping them do what they can for everyone. The boomers help the courier, the brotherhood helps the courier, the enclave remnants help the courier. You see what I m getting at here, the best way forward will always be the one you pave for yourself without anybody plowing it for you. These groups are now able to work together to provide state security with the help of hundreds if not thousands of robots, choosing there own destiny and making it work for them. They have power and water from the dam, an army with artillery and air support with both light and heavy troops (power armor). Individual freedoms and security are in place as these groups all want to work for themselves but will obviously work together when needed. Also it sure looks like at the end the relationship with the NCR may be tense but it can be nurtured into trade as the NCR really wants power from the damn. This gives them access to NCR industrial capabilities as they can trade power for manufactured goods.

So best option for the future of the Mojave will be the independent courier.

And if you guys really want to get into the tactics of the battles you generally need three times the amount of equally defined troops to remove an enemy from an entrenched position. Also we know that the use of firearms in modern warfare has made it so that much less training and physical strength is needed in making effective troops. We know that the NCR is more likely to equip its troops better as they are given a semi-auto rifle as there standard troops weapon compared to a short sword the legionaries are given. Legion troops will likely have better training but firearms makes that less needed. Lets make an assumption here that 2 basic legion troopers are equal to 1 NCR trooper due to the basic equipment advantage the standard firearm would give them. (we could get into talking about the elite troops here but that evens out in my book as the NCR have rangers and heavy troopers to counter the higher ranked legion troopers using better guns and ballistic fists)

So lets do a battle where the legion are fighting an entrenched NCR force. The NCR entrenches and has troopers set up in fox holes and trenches with wire and mines, a pretty standard WWI setup. For every 10 troops we have a squad gun (machine gun which yes will mow down tonnes of troops). The legion would come with tonnes of basic troops sporting swords (you don't bring a knife to a gun fight), lever action rifles, and having a small minority with good weapons (assault rifles and high powered semis(which have always been a problem in this game for me how is it the marksmans rifle or whatever is more powerful then the NCR standard rifle when they have the same action and fire the same round .223/5.56x45)). These legion troop swill need 60 troops for every 10 NCR holding the line. You stick 100 troops on a hill and 600 would have to root them out.

 

[Bubba Zanetti]

You see what I m getting at here, the best way forward will always be the one you pave for yourself without anybody plowing it for you. These groups are now able to work together to provide state security with the help of hundreds if not thousands of robots, choosing there own destiny and making it work for them.

It's a big if. Whenever I wrap up an independent New Vegas run, the words of General Oliver come back to haunt me:

Do you know what you're doing? Making a nation - like you think you're doing, ain't like chowing down on a pile of Fancy Lad Snack Cakes. Think you got the guts to carve out a frontier? Build towns, protect the roads, run supplies, train troops?

When a narrow-sighted dumbass like Lee Oliver of all people is calling the Courier out on his/her shit, it's probably time to take a step back for a little strategic review.

Who in New Vegas is going to step up and help the Courier maintain this newfound nation state? The King? He could barely control Freeside, which by the way becomes the most stable part of the region compared to the rest (let that sink in). If you tap a clever dude like Marcus, does even he have the necessary experience beyond managing a few small towns? How will the resources in the area be utilized? If the Brotherhood is still around, what's to stop them from hoarding precious technology? How long will the Vegas area remain in a state of anarchy, overwhelming the Followers and encouraging Boomers to remain in isolation?

So best option for the future of the Mojave will be the independent courier.

The best option is the NCR if they can ever get their act together back west. The best option is House if he can see beyond the lights of Vegas long enough to jump start a new era for mankind. The best option is Legion if Caesar can establish a firmly rooted Pax Romana before he's shuffled off this mortal coil. The best option is an Independent New Vegas if all the haphazard elements that comprise the Mojave can coalesce into a powerful, fully-functioning nation state.

True to the Vegas setting, it's all a crap shoot in the end.

Personally, my money is on the Legion being the most successful of the bunch--provided Sallow is at the helm and he's had enough time to properly settle the empire... but that's just me.

 

[GonZo_626]

It's a big if. Whenever I wrap up an independent New Vegas run, the words of General Oliver come back to haunt me:

Do you know what you're doing? Making a nation - like you think you're doing, ain't like chowing down on a pile of Fancy Lad Snack Cakes. Think you got the guts to carve out a frontier? Build towns, protect the roads, run supplies, train troops?

When a narrow-sighted dumbass like Lee Oliver of all people is calling the Courier out on his/her shit, it's probably time to take a step back for a little strategic review.

Who in New Vegas is going to step up and help the Courier maintain this newfound nation state? The King? He could barely control Freeside, which by the way becomes the most stable part of the region compared to the rest (let that sink in). If you tap a clever dude like Marcus, does even he have the necessary experience beyond managing a few small towns? How will the resources in the area be utilized? If the Brotherhood is still around, what's to stop them from hoarding precious technology? How long will the Vegas area remain in a state of anarchy, overwhelming the Followers and encouraging Boomers to remain in isolation?



The best option is the NCR if they can ever get their act together back west. The best option is House if he can see beyond the lights of Vegas long enough to jump start a new era for mankind. The best option is Legion if Caesar can establish a firmly rooted Pax Romana before he's shuffled off this mortal coil. The best option is an Independent New Vegas if all the haphazard elements that comprise the Mojave can coalesce into a powerful, fully-functioning nation state.

True to the Vegas setting, it's all a crap shoot in the end.

Personally, my money is on the Legion being the most successful of the bunch--provided Sallow is at the helm and he's had enough time to properly settle the empire... but that's just me.

Bah! Oliver was an idiot. Think about it House's upgraded and fully reinforced securitron army that you usurp could handle the protection f roads, bring security for running of supplies. Training troops would take time yes, as well as rebuilding, but at least the people of New Vegas would have the control over their own lives.

 

[CerberusGate]

Real funny, smartass. Seriously though, I'm done. Need to find a real challenge anyways. Cheers.

All I saw was an incoherent wall of text (sentence structure could use more work) that deliberately ignores points by others, an inability to properly argue and a lack of any willingness to concede on points all because you think you're the only one who is right (and from what I can tell, you are clearly wrong in a lot of areas when you presumed you knew what the actual intent of the creators was). I honestly have no idea how you think you won any debate here. If anything, the others managed to poke holes into your points and you had to resort to insults.

A debate is more than destroying the argument of another (what you are describing is an actual argument of sorts); it's actually making the other concede, understand and accept one train of thought to be more credible. No idea how you confused arguments and debates but nice to see that immaturity is all but present on the internet. Still, I guess trolls will always be trolls so try using your head next time, it may actually be coherent.

Bah! Oliver was an idiot. Think about it House's upgraded and fully reinforced securitron army that you usurp could handle the protection f roads, bring security for running of supplies. Training troops would take time yes, as well as rebuilding, but at least the people of New Vegas would have the control over their own lives.

At what cost? Being free does not equate to being secure. Even with independence, there will be a lack of aim among the people of the Independent Vegas since the status quo has shifted until the Courier and Yes Man get to work. Oliver may be a bad general but he knows how to speak with some credibility (I suspect that know-how is how he even became general).

As many of the endings imply, there will be birthing pains in making a new nation. While the Courier could be rendered mostly immortal due to his cyborg nature, there will be a lot of groundwork to be done and even a person as talented as the Courier would have their work cut out for them. Plus Securitrons are not infallible and may fall victim to unscrupulous individuals with tech and tactics (especially if the Courier spared the Brotherhood of Steel). A lot of work will have to be done after the Battle of Hoover Dam and the groundwork has to be established before the battle (during the game).

Honestly, the best thing for the Mojave is rather subjective. I choose NCR in my playthrough but I recognize that the NCR back West needs to fix itself (and there is a chance that it may get worse later on) or it would only cause more harm to the region. @Bubba Zanetti points out that every faction (including the Independent route) needs to fix themselves to some degree to be a best option for the Mojave, though I doubt that Sallow could have enough time to find an individual to become his heir apparent and ensure that said individual understands the truth about the Legion's inspiration (that's just me). I'm leaning towards NCR only because the Mojave Wasteland is made up of more than just aggressive tribals but includes civilized individuals who abhor the values of the Legion (while not recognizing the reasons for the values practiced by the Legion).