Why Robert Edwin House is the best hope for the wasteland and humanity

[Throatpunch]

can you stop taking half a statement and debunking that half instead of taking my entire statement and using that. its annoying that you are ignoring half of what I say.

He is able to find fuel, doesn't cut it. Where is the fuel, how will he transport it, how will he refine it?

I was just saying he could find it. He will probably use nuclear, or plasma.

Perhaps, I can see that happening. That just turns the NCR citizens against their government, leading to a possibility of a glorious socialist... a revolution basically.

How would they figure out that House is bankrolling the top brass?
Politicians are more crooked than ever and no one seems to care in our world, so why would they care.

The NCR weren't anywhere in Hoover Damn. Nah, that was all House! Those rangers you saw? Illusions, all of them. They were propaganda holograms made by the NCR

I believe House could take out the Rangers, one ranger could take out 1 securitron at a time, but give his position away. Soon enough 60 securitrons will be onto him.

Not really. The NCR still has a bigger army, and can easily stop his army from entering.

Bigger does not mean better. The troops are bad quality, trained on average for 2 weeks. Securitrons are killing machines, and imagine the psychological impact of a huge robot with a laser gun and a missile launcher. And you disregarded what I said about terrorist organisations.

Keep in mind that there are a couple of entry chokepoints which the NCR can shore up.

House would probably use Blitzkrieg style tactics, I doubt there would be enough time to shore up. Anyway, I think House could win a war of attrition. The conflict would turn into some kind of Somme scenario.

Keep in mind that after a while House would starve economically

I forgot to mention that NCR isnt the only organisation that trades.

So that's bullshit.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

This snarky attitude is pissing me off, please refrain, no need to be sarcastic/rude.

Stop denying it exists and is canon. You are like an evolution denier.

Obviously, because technical specialists who can tinker on rockets grow on trees!

But the Brotherhood has many technical specialists who can tinker on all sorts of funky pre war tech. And my full quote is

With all the money from the casinos and manpower clogging up Freeside, House can effectively build up a workforce of technical specialists.

You ignored half my statement.

Saying House can produce a lunar colony, doesn't cut it. Where would he get the materials, where would he get the expertise and necessary knowledge? Scrap metal doesn't make fucking high tech bullshit that's needed.

He can trade with NCR, whom we've already established he wont have a war with.

Gracious thanks to Black angel, for his brilliant debating skills. I am thanking my lucky stars you are on my side!

 

[Izak]

Stop denying it exists and is canon. You are like an evolution denier.

What exists?

 

[Black Angel]

Correction, @Doomsdayprepper69, I'm not on *your* side. Rather, I'm on Mr. House's side, just like you and @Izak.

Also, since I haven't played Fallout 4, I can't comment on your argument for Mr. House's space travels that includes the stuff from Fallout 4. But, judging from Izak's and @Dr Fallout's reaction, I think it's not a good idea to include the material of Fallout 4 into your arguments. To be honest, it's also Bethesda's fault of not even trying anymore to hire good writers, or at least write properly and give better explanation to the stuff they included into their games. They want to make stuff canon? Then they better write properly for it to be at least acceptable among the classical Fallout's fans. Fallout franchise is famous from since the days of the original Fallouts, one of them because of the lore consistency, to the point that when an inconsistency arise (see: Fallout 2), it gets heavily criticized.

Out of my curiosity, I want to know if you have played Fallout 1 and 2? Because in Fallout 2, I forgot if it was the Shi or the Hubologist, but they wanted to attempt actual space travel, so I suggest you use the material existed in San Francisco for your arguments, rather than that of Fallout 4. Heck, even Izak admitted that you made pretty solid arguments for space travel.... until you mentioned Fallout 4, which ruined the entirety of your arguments :/

 

[Risewild]

Out of my curiosity, I want to know if you have played Fallout 1 and 2? Because in Fallout 2, I forgot if it was the Shi or the Hubologist, but they wanted to attempt actual space travel, so I suggest you use the material existed in San Francisco for your arguments, rather than that of Fallout 4. Heck, even Izak admitted that you made pretty solid arguments for space travel.... until you mentioned Fallout 4, which ruined the entirety of your arguments :/

I mentioned that in a post here in the posts page right before this one

I only came here to say something about space travel, in Fallout 2 The Shi are starting to consider Space travel too and they believe they can pull it off in the future. So a question I make to all of you guys and girls is this:

If the Shi can in the future make space travel possible, can Mr House do it too?

Also about manpower for building rockets and stuff, remember that Mr House plans depend on finding the platinum chip and make a almost infinite army of Securitrons, those can be easily programmed by him to be labourers for free. I think that if he gets the Securitron factory going, since he will have so much army and free workers that he wouldn't need money for almost anything else, but that is me assuming like most of this thread and I don't like to assume things .

 

[Black Angel]

I mentioned that in a post here in the posts page right before this one

Yeah, I know. I forgot to mention you :/

 

[Atomic Postman]

You realize that trying to prove House is objectively the best option and that he can do no wrong is kind of fruitless, right. One of the many points of New Vegas is that each faction is equally flawed. The NCR is bloated and ineffective. The Legion is elitist and brutal. House is controlling and near tyrannical. Wild Card is risky and unknown.

House is no more perfect than the others.

 

[Izak]

You can always argue over which one will raise the standard of living most significantly though.
The Legion (with Caesar at the helm) will bring the most effective and overarching rule at the expense of freedom, the NCR brings happiness at the expense of fluidity, Wild Card brings absolute freedom at the expense of stability and, House brings prosperity at the expense of self-determination. If you take what I've just said as true then, to me at least, House has the best chance of making people happy, at least, as long as they live in Vegas.

 

[Black Angel]

Whelp, nobody here, not even me, are trying to prove that House is 'flawless' and 'can do no wrong'. Read again, and read carefully, @AlphaPromethean. Like @Izak said, anybody can always argue which one will raise the standard of living most significantly. The beauty of New Vegas is that no faction is perfect, and which one is the best all boils down to what faction players choose, why, and how they want it to plays out. Obsidian made this game with so many possibility in regards to the story, and how it plays out by providing us with multiple ending slides which based upon many variations of our choices of words and actions because they want to emulate PnP RPG in their game, unlike this other developer who only want to use the name to get all the money and not even (seemingly) trying anymore.

 

[Throatpunch]

Correction, @Doomsdayprepper69, I'm not on *your* side. Rather, I'm on Mr. House's side, just like you and @Izak.

*sigh* Don't bother poking holes, it was a compliment

Also, since I haven't played Fallout 4, I can't comment on your argument for Mr. House's space travels that includes the stuff from Fallout 4. But, judging from Izak's and @Dr Fallout's reaction, I think it's not a good idea to include the material of Fallout 4 into your arguments. To be honest, it's also Bethesda's fault of not even trying anymore to hire good writers, or at least write properly and give better explanation to the stuff they included into their games. They want to make stuff canon? Then they better write properly for it to be at least acceptable among the classical Fallout's fans. Fallout franchise is famous from since the days of the original Fallouts, one of them because of the lore consistency, to the point that when an inconsistency arise (see: Fallout 2), it gets heavily criticized.

I shall certainly use the Shi in my future arguments, thanks for telling me about them.
I didn't realise that you guys thought that it was so invalid, I don't see the issue. Its a canon game now, lets just accept that and move on.

Its nice to see that the thread I made to see what would happen created such debate. I only expected it to be 2 - 4 pages long.

 

[Izak]

I don't see why we have to accept Fallout 4 as canon, it's the individual fan that decides what exists, not the publisher (see Fallout 3 for an example of another game that isn't canon).
Besides, with the addition of the Shi that part of your argument isn't really necessary, though I don't know why people were arguing about it to begin with, aren't we relatively close to having the technology required to build a space colony already? If we're almost capable of it then why wouldn't the super-advanced Fallout USA be capable?

 

[Throatpunch]

I don't see why we have to accept Fallout 4 as canon, it's the individual fan that decides what exists, not the publisher (see Fallout 3 for an example of another game that isn't canon).

If that is so then I can class the space battle as canon, and a part of my argument, so its just your opinion that its an invalid argument, so hence it isnt an invalid argument.

Besides, with the addition of the Shi that part of your argument isn't really necessary, though I don't know why people were arguing about it to begin with, aren't we relatively close to having the technology required to build a space colony already? If we're almost capable of it then why wouldn't the super-advanced Fallout USA be capable?

My point all along.

 

[Black Angel]

My point all along.

BUT! Considering how Bethesda seriously doesn't even care or even bother to put better explanation to the moon battle, it's too weak as a support for your arguments, no matter how canon you and/or Bethesda made it to be. I mean, have you even noticed how Pete Hines responded to the guy who questioned the lore inconsistency in Fallout 4? Bethesda aren't a type of game developers you can casually talked with at an afternoon tea, discussing Fallout lore. At least, the big names that appeared on the stage to present their games, like Todd and Emil.

 

[Throatpunch]

BUT! Considering how Bethesda seriously doesn't even care or even bother to put better explanation to the moon battle, it's too weak as a support for your arguments, no matter how canon you and/or Bethesda made it to be. I mean, have you even noticed how Pete Hines responded to the guy who questioned the lore inconsistency in Fallout 4? Bethesda aren't a type of game developers you can casually talked with at an afternoon tea, discussing Fallout lore. At least, the big names that appeared on the stage to present their games, like Todd and Emil.

I guess if its gonna cause such an angry backlash I wont mention it any more in my arguments, I'll be using the Shi instead.

 

[Dr Fallout]

I was just saying he could find it. He will probably use nuclear, or plasma.

Best reply ever. I don't know how... but trust me, he can!

How would they figure out that House is bankrolling the top brass?
Politicians are more crooked than ever and no one seems to care in our world, so why would they care.

Because it would be obvious if the politicians were far too friendly to Mr House. Also, people do care. Look at Brazil.

I believe House could take out the Rangers, one ranger could take out 1 securitron at a time, but give his position away. Soon enough 60 securitrons will be onto him.

What I meant is that the NCR were weakened after beating the Legion at the damn, allowing the securitrons an advantage.

Bigger does not mean better. The troops are bad quality, trained on average for 2 weeks. Securitrons are killing machines, and imagine the psychological impact of a huge robot with a laser gun and a missile launcher. And you disregarded what I said about terrorist organisations.

Except the NCR is a LOT bigger. I'd be confident in saying 200 times bigger. So? They have enough firepower to take down securitrons. It's not like they're invincible (I should know, I killed a lot of them). Yep, imagine the psychological impact of commissars. And that's not even too far out, as the NCR is becoming more authoritarian. Also, artillery. Also, heavy weaponry. Because it makes no sense. How can House send money and guns if the way out and in of the Mojave is all closed off? Unless said people are interested in going through the divide...

House would probably use Blitzkrieg style tactics, I doubt there would be enough time to shore up. Anyway, I think House could win a war of attrition. The conflict would turn into some kind of Somme scenario.

Blitzkreig only worked because of flat large planes, not small confined spaces... What? He doesn't have factories or materials to male securitrons. Now you're just pulling shit out of your ass, there's no way House can win a war of attrition due to his limited resources. That's what stopped him from declaring war on the NCR. Without the ability to make quick strikes and kick them out, there's no way he can win.

I forgot to mention that NCR isnt the only organisation that trades.

I forgot to mention that the NCR controls all trade routes.

This snarky attitude is pissing me off, please refrain, no need to be sarcastic/rude.

Sorry but some of your arguments desire more. Still, I'll stop if it annoys you.

Stop denying it exists and is canon. You are like an evolution denier.

Fallout 4 is... let's just say something that is contradictory, stupid and fuck all sense won't be canon in my book. Use the Shi instead.

But the Brotherhood has many technical specialists who can tinker on all sorts of funky pre war tech. And my full quote is

True... oh wait! He blew them all to fucking smithereens. I didn't ignore it, I fully realize that money can't buy you specialists if there aren't any to begin with.

He can trade with NCR, whom we've already established he wont have a war with.

You haven't shown there won't be a war yet.

 

[Izak]

True... oh wait! He blew them all to fucking smithereens. I didn't ignore it, I fully realize that money can't buy you specialists if there aren't any to begin with.

Eh, one could argue that this was gameplay concession, after all in the cut content you could convince House to leave them alone.
I also want to quickly note down how dumb the Shi and Hubologists are, they're better than the moon battle but they're still pretty dumb (not to say that your argument isn't legitimate Doomsday, it's totally fine).

 

[Dr Fallout]

Eh, one could argue that this was gameplay concession, after all in the cut content you could convince House to leave them alone.
I also want to quickly note down how dumb the Shi and Hubologists are, they're better than the moon battle but they're still pretty dumb (not to say that your argument isn't legitimate Doomsday, it's totally fine).

Agreed, the Shi are still stupid (martial arts? Chinese dynasties? No wonder I get rid of them in every Fallout PnP game).

 

[Throatpunch]

Best reply ever. I don't know how... but trust me, he can!

But we see that plasma is easily findable, they use it in weapons.

True... oh wait! He blew them all to fucking smithereens. I didn't ignore it, I fully realize that money can't buy you specialists if there aren't any to begin with

All I was saying that they managed to find some in the wasteland, so why couldn't House?

You haven't shown there won't be a war yet.

Look back, we discussed this.

Blitzkreig only worked because of flat large planes, not small confined spaces... What?

it works anywhere, very well in places like flat planes, but I meant that House could use lightning war.
A German term for “lightning war,” blitzkrieg is a military tactic designed to create disorganization among enemy forces through the use of mobile forces and locally concentrated fire power.
Mobile forces and locally concentrated power = securitrons
My point was he could use shock tactics.

I forgot to mention that the NCR controls all trade routes.

They control lots of the trade routes, but not all of them, the Legion control many of them and thats mentioned in the game, and who says he cant establish new trade routes and protect them with securitrons or hired mercenaries.

So? They have enough firepower to take down securitrons. It's not like they're invincible (I should know, I killed a lot of them). Yep, imagine the psychological impact of commissars. And that's not even too far out, as the NCR is becoming more authoritarian. Also, artillery. Also, heavy weaponry. Because it makes no sense. How can House send money and guns if the way out and in of the Mojave is all closed off?

You make a good point there, but even though they have enough firepower to bring down securitrons, I still think they will lose.
I think it will be like Operation Barbarossa, numbers didn't matter, the well built and trained Wehrmacht did. The only reason they lost is because of incompetent leadership, and House sure isnt incompetent. Also, Securitrons wont be hindered by weather factors like extreme warmth, they dont need food or water, or sleep. Also securitrons arent his only military option, he could hire mercenaries. On the subject of artillery, I think it unfeasable that they could have enough to use effectively. Maybe light shelling guns, but howitzers arent exactly everywhere after a great war.

I dont think the NCR has enough in it to wage total war like that for long, because of the bad economic state its in after Houses victory and the upcoming food crisis
Not to mention that after such a drastically failed campaign in the Mojave, few people would be willing to throw away men and caps at what's essentially bruised ego. House would also keep the water and power flowing on top of providing commerce and covering NCR's eastern flank. It's a pretty solid position that will encourage cooperation, rather than military assaults.

And that's not even too far out, as the NCR is becoming more authoritarian.

Not really, its still democratic and a land of the free within the rule of law.

 

[Dr Fallout]

But we see that plasma is easily findable, they use it in weapons.

And those weapons are rare, also there's limited ammunition from them. Not enough to power a rocket.

All I was saying that they managed to find some in the wasteland, so why couldn't House?

Oh... because they trained them from birth, had complicated technology and advanced manuals and simulations?

Look back, we discussed this.

Not satisfactorily enough.

it works anywhere, very well in places like flat planes, but I meant that House could use lightning war.
A German term for “lightning war,” blitzkrieg is a military tactic designed to create disorganization among enemy forces through the use of mobile forces and locally concentrated fire power.
Mobile forces and locally concentrated power = securitrons
My point was he could use shock tactics.

No it doesn't. It requires areas to allow for pincer movements and cutting off enemy supply lines. Except he can't use it in the thin and closed off pathways that led to the NCR territories. Of course there's always the divide...

They control lots of the trade routes, but not all of them, the Legion control many of them and thats mentioned in the game, and who says he cant establish new trade routes and protect them with securitrons or hired mercenaries.

... I'm trying really hard not to laugh. The Legion will never trade with Mr House, and they're better fighters then the NCR by far.

You make a good point there, but even though they have enough firepower to bring down securitrons, I still think they will lose.
I think it will be like Operation Barbarossa, numbers didn't matter, the well built and trained Wehrmacht did. The only reason they lost is because of incompetent leadership, and House sure isnt incompetent. Also, Securitrons wont be hindered by weather factors like extreme warmth, they dont need food or water, or sleep. Also securitrons arent his only military option, he could hire mercenaries. On the subject of artillery, I think it unfeasable that they could have enough to use effectively. Maybe light shelling guns, but howitzers arent exactly everywhere after a great war.

I dont think the NCR has enough in it to wage total war like that for long, because of the bad economic state its in after Houses victory and the upcoming food crisis
Not to mention that after such a drastically failed campaign in the Mojave, few people would be willing to throw away men and caps at what's essentially bruised ego. House would also keep the water and power flowing on top of providing commerce and covering NCR's eastern flank. It's a pretty solid position that will encourage cooperation, rather than military assaults.

Actually comparing the unprepared (the NCR are the aggressors, they're prepared all right) and poor leadership (for every General Oliver, there's a Colonel Moor or Hanlon) soviets to the NCR is unreliable and flawed. There are some examples, but the NCR also has lots of elite units. Snipers and Rangers are some. So? The NCR only have to sit tight and starve Mr House. The Mojave just doesn't have enough mercenaries to make this feasible. Why not? They could use heavy artillery to strike at the nearby towns and use smaller ones against the Securitrons.

They do, though it would have made them weaker yet even if they win. Upcoming food crisis may be bullshit from Hanlon to persuade you against the NCR. That is true, but keep in mind that the war was never for conquest, but establishing NCR influence and dominating Vegas with NCR citizens and businesses.

Not really, its still democratic and a land of the free within the rule of law.

Sure, sure, what ever you say.

 

[Throatpunch]

Oh... because they trained them from birth, had complicated technology and advanced manuals and simulations?

House has lots of Pre War information and knowledge to be able to train these kinds of specialists from birth.

And those weapons are rare, also there's limited ammunition from them. Not enough to power a rocket.

You could use liquid hydrogen, or electric propulsion.

No it doesn't. It requires areas to allow for pincer movements and cutting off enemy supply lines. Except he can't use it in the thin and closed off pathways that led to the NCR territories. Of course there's always the divide...

I guess you are right about Blitzkrieg. Since the pathways are thin and closed, he could just blockade them and eliminate and troops that came out.

They could use heavy artillery to strike at the nearby towns and use smaller ones against the Securitrons.

I told you why not. They don't really have enough to make this effective, and 200 year old heavy artillery will probably not be in tip top condition.

Upcoming food crisis may be bullshit from Hanlon to persuade you against the NCR.

I assure you its not, the NCR science department are scrambling to find a way to develop growth accelerators for crops, they are scavenging vaults to find it.

That is true, but keep in mind that the war was never for conquest, but establishing NCR influence and dominating Vegas with NCR citizens and businesses.

Think about before FNV. House gave them a good treaty, so they didn't invade Vegas, that can happen again.

Not satisfactorily enough.

Remember Vietnam? The Americans didn't just go back in there because they had a bruised ego, public opinion was against it. The public wouldn't allow it to happen, and after Kimballs resignation I suspect a person more dovish and willing to work with House would be elected. Anyway, House could just bankroll the new president.
House would also keep the water and power flowing on top of providing commerce and covering NCR's eastern flank. It's a pretty solid position that will encourage cooperation, rather than military assaults.
I think those are a good enough points that debunk the idea of a war.

Sure, sure, what ever you say.

But it is.

... I'm trying really hard not to laugh. The Legion will never trade with Mr House, and they're better fighters then the NCR by far.

You keep totally misunderstanding and misinterpreting what I'm saying. My point was that NCR don't control all trade routes, like you said.

soviets to the NCR is unreliable and flawed.

I meant that the German leadership was incompetent, not the NCR leadership. Read what I said again and think about it.

 

[Izak]

Also, if they were better fighters they would have won the war by the beginning of FNV.

They are better fighters, they only lost the first Battle of Hoover Dam because Joshua Graham was an awful strategist, their actual soldiers are top notch though, a whole lot of NCR personnel admit this.

I meant that the German leadership was incompetent, not the NCR leadership.

Assuming you're talking about WW2, the German leadership was top notch at the start of the war, they only really started screwing up when the Russian invasion failed and Hitler sacked a fair chunk of the military leaders.