Muuuuuuuslim Baaaaaan! But don't call it that!

CaptJ said:
You didn't explicitly say that it wasn't about race. In fact, you keep insinuating that large portion of the voter base is racist. If it isn't about race, then how are they racist? Also, it feels like you only skimmed my posts.
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Your problem is you keep trying to make Trump's election about race and turn me into a weird kind of straw liberal. I am, however, 100% right a large portion of the voter base is racist because race is a huge part of America. However, the whole idea Trump was elected because of race is liberal sour grapes trying to explain away their loss instead of accepting people hate neocon Democrats every bit as much as corrupt Republicans.

You've mentioned you have a problem with my statement class, race, and religion are all interlocked in terms of prejudice. Well, the thing is that it's all one facet of the larger issue of Othering and tribalism in America. People find reasons to dislike the Other and these feed into one another and create the prejudices we see in America.

When people hate Blacks in America, they often hate them because of class-based reasons as well as their skin color and the perception of Black culture being "angry" at the White man.

When people hate Arabs, they often do it because of religions reasons as well as perceptions of either extreme difference in terms of wealth (either much or less).

There's also the fact people who actually believe race is a real thing are idiots. Race is fucking nonsense and arbitrary bullshit created by a bunch of white assholes in the 19th century to make themselves feel good about themselves despite the goalposts are usually, "Close to me." It's just a grouping people have made to broaden and define their tribe.

I remember an iranian associate of mine being pissed off about the Prince of Persia casting controversy. Why? Because he identified himself as white and was annoyed most of the world seemed not to realize that.
 
There is definetly a strange kind of tribalism present in the United States that goes as far back to the so called 'natives' fighting immigrants like Irish refugees fleeing poverty, famines and british opression in their old homeland. And this is not a rare single even either. You can go right to the 20th century, with the fear of poles and eastern europeans, or the chinese immigrants, the japanese, internment camps etc.

CaptJ said:
Jewish people are largely considered a race mostly because they consider themselves a race.
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The 'German' ones too? The one that ended up in concentration camps during the Nazi regime? Nonsense.
Don't confuse the believ of 'Israel' as a people and state, their proganda today, with the jews that live(d) in Europe particuliarly before 1945. Those have been two very different kind of groups and people. Yes, the 'concept' of Judea and the state Israel was a popular idea among jews, but for most it was not really a realistic goal at that point or even something they strived for, not before WW2 and the Nazi regime, which changed a lot in Europe. The Jews in Europe, saw them self as citizens and part of their nations.

Most of them actually felt as 'Germans', quite many actually fought in WW1 even for the German Empire under Willhelm II. Jews have been one of the best assimilated groups/religions in Germany, present in many different areas of German society, from science, to the government, runing business, as painters, actors you name it. And the Hollocaust is the best proof, that no matter how well a group is integrated in to a society, as long as they make a minority, they can become a vicitm of discrimination, and worse, a genocide and there is no constitution or any other 'legal' paper there that will help them, if the population on a large scale doesn't defend their rights.
Progroms against jews and antisemism has a very long and bloody history in Europe, quite often when ever a scape goat was needed, the Jews had to suffer. And the similiarites between antisemitism and islam hate are quite frightening honestly. Particularly when you go a bit further back than 1933 or before any concentration camp, but actually to the 19th century, before WW1 and compare the rhetoric of antimseimtes with islamophobes today. The tunes some have thrown out against the Tora, the Jewish religion, was almost identical to what they say about Islam today, that it doesnt belong to Europe, that it is not compabitle with Christian values, that it doesn't have a place in the German society, that it is a true and true viollent religion and that no jew can be trusted yada yada.
 
"I am a Jew and glad to belong to the Jewish people, though I do not regard it in any way as chosen."
-Einstein

Judaism is both a religion and a race. So that's kind of splitting hairs. You can be an atheist Jew. And you can be a Christian and a Jew. Though Israel, itself, gets really pissed off about the Jews for Jesus folk. You can also convert to Judaism, though it's a non-evangelical religion. Unlike, *drumroll*, Christianity and Islam.


Crni Vuk said:
I was trying to tell you that the fact that 'Religion' isn't a race, didn't stop the Nazis or pretty much anyone else in history, to treat it like one.

Because let us be honest here, when people hear 'Muslim' they really think almost always, 'Arab', brown people, those middle easterns. When it comes to christianity, we tend to think about it as religion, simply because christian beliefs are the largest christian religion in western nations, like France, Germany and of course the US. But Muslims are a minority in the US and the European Union, and that minority has often roots in Iran, Pakistan and many other states from the middle east. So people often don't see it in the same way, they see christians. The idea of even banning christians based on the crimes christians do, would seem ludicrous to us, while it is openly discussed with Islam and Muslims, particulary these days.
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My wife was stunned when I pointed out a majority of Muslims are Asian and Black. It's associated with the Middle East but it's a planetary religion.
 
Yeah, it is a bit more complicated, granted. But the Jews that simply followed their religion, have been as german as any christian in the 1930s. TO say they have been a 'race' would be as ludicrous like to claim German protestants would be of a different race compared to German catholics.
 
Crni Vuk said:
The tunes some have thrown out against the Tora, the Jewish religion, was almost identical to what they say about Islam today, that it doesnt belong to Europe, that it is not compabitle with Christian values, that it doesn't have a place in the German society, that it is a true and true viollent religion and that no jew can be trusted yada yada.
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I'll just toss my polandball here again..

DtX40w0.png
 
Crni Vuk said:
Yeah, it is a bit more complicated, granted. But the Jews that simply followed their religion, have been as german as any christian in the 1930s. TO say they have been a 'race' would be as ludicrous like to claim German protestants would be of a different race compared to German catholics.
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The Cherokee tribe was notably completely assimilated into America's population when Andrew Jackson ordered them on the Trail of Tears.

He knew the American people wouldn't care and only see the "Indian" element.

Which is why I supported his removal from the money.
 
CT Phipps said:
I am, however, 100% right a large portion of the voter base is racist because race is a huge part of America.
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That is retarded. Also a bit of circular reasoning. America is pretty multicultural compared to China or Japan. The preference for Jus Soli over Jus Sanguinis although America uses a little of both is on the idea that American isn't a race.
CT Phipps said:
There's also the fact people who actually believe race is a real thing are idiots. Race is fucking nonsense and arbitrary bullshit created by a bunch of white assholes in the 19th century to make themselves feel good about themselves despite the goalposts are usually, "Close to me."
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Tell that to bone marrow donors.
Crni Vuk said:
The 'German' ones too? The one that ended up in concentration camps during the Nazi regime? Nonsense.

Most of them actually felt as 'Germans', quite many actually fought in WW1 even for the German Empire under Willhelm II.
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Crni Vuk said:
TO say they have been a 'race' would be as ludicrous like to claim German protestants would be of a different race compared to German catholics.
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German isn't a race; it is a nationality. Hitler wasn't even born a German. He was born in Austria.

CT Phipps said:
You've mentioned you have a problem with my statement class, race, and religion are all interlocked in terms of prejudice. Well, the thing is that it's all one facet of the larger issue of Othering and tribalism in America. People find reasons to dislike the Other and these feed into one another and create the prejudices we see in America.

When people hate Blacks in America, they often hate them because of class-based reasons as well as their skin color and the perception of Black culture being "angry" at the White man.

When people hate Arabs, they often do it because of religions reasons as well as perceptions of either extreme difference in terms of wealth (either much or less).
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Look, I got your point. I even said it in my previous post. However, you are treading a dangerous path. You are playing a country wide arm-chair psychoanalyst. Economists assume everyone is completely rational and well informed; and that never happens. Thus they started the field known as Behavioral Economics. Look at what happen to the word "thug". A thug is a violent criminal but people construed it as a racial slur. However, do you hear anyone call a Black woman a thug?
 
CT Phipps said:
Amusingly, thug started as a racial slur.

Against Indians.
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Thug
2) a member of a religious organization of robbers and assassins in India. Devotees of the goddess Kali, the Thugs waylaid and strangled their victims, usually travelers, in a ritually prescribed manner. They were suppressed by the British in the 1830s.

early 19th century (sense 2): from Hindi ṭhag ‘swindler, thief,’ based on Sanskrit sthagati ‘he covers or conceals.’
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... origins.
 
CaptJ said:
German isn't a race; it is a nationality. Hitler wasn't even born a German. He was born in Austria.
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Fine nationality then! It still doesn't change the fact that the Germans (and many other 'nations') havn't been stoped by religion not beeing a race to well, fight people following a religion like as they would have been a different race.
 
CT Phipps said:
Yes, a nonexistent secret society which was used to slander Indians.



The Thuggee never existed.

Hence slur...against Indians.

You know, the people the Thugge were supposedly a part of.
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Is the revisionist view actually fully accepted?

/edit:
Anyway, the travel ban is lifted after a judge's order, and Trump swiftly demonstrates what he thinks of the separation of powers:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/827867311054974976
 
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"Takes law enforcement away FROM ME!!!! I mean, the country the country. Anyway my birthday will also be christened as the day of patriotic devotion to the President"
 
Crni Vuk said:
It still doesn't change the fact that the Germans (and many other 'nations') havn't been stoped by religion not beeing a race to well, fight people following a religion like as they would have been a different race.
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Yes, it's a sad part of history and moslems did the same many times in the name of their religion. Still, closing your borders against mass immigration is not the same thing as mass murder fueled by nazism, so you can't compare immigration policy to holocaust. That's just way off, Australia would disapprove of your message..
 
Yeah, tell this to the people that fleed from ISIS. We are closing our borders in fear ... of ISIS ... to people that try to esacpe from ... ISIS. Wow. And it seems the situation in refugee camps in Lybia is starting to really look like a concentration camp ... funded by European money no less, and we also pay Erdogan to do what we are not 'willing' to do. Shooting them on the border. I mean you can say about white supremacists, nazis etc. what ever you want. But they are at least honest, when they say that they want to 'permanently' remove people. The alt-right-winger-what-ever-hypocrite is already happy when other people do it for him. Just don't get your hands dirty!

Only a cynical would call what happend in Syria and the Syrians a 'mass immigration'. Many people will probably stay in Germany yes, but I can not blame people for fleeing wars, poverity and maybe even death, when 100 000 of Germans did the same some 60 years ago, where they first fleed from the advancing Russians and many later fleed again from the GDR, simply because they didn't want to live in a communist paradize. And even my parents, moved from Yugoslavia to Germany some 35 years ago, simply because Germany was a better place to live.
 
Most of the Syrian refugees ended in Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, and Turkey anyway, the majority of people flowing to EU are economic immigrants. There's nothing wrong with helping people endangered by war, that's why EU (and your government too) labeled many countries, including Balkanian countries, as safe and started sending tens of thousands migrants back.
 
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