Muuuuuuuslim Baaaaaan! But don't call it that!

[Crni Vuk]

We also have lots of economic immigrants from Slovakia, Czechia and Poland in Germany as well, the so called 'rightwingers' never got tired to talk about them before Muslim was a thing.
Now that I think about it, I remember there was this case where the police released a video-footage from a guy that kicked a female down the stairs. Everyone was going crazy, that it sure was an arab and a muslim asshole! They can not integrate into our society. Turns out, after they found the suspect who didi it, it was a christian guy from eastern Europe. Strange that no one really talked about the real elephant in the room. Why has the police only released the footage months after it happend?

 

[valcik]

Send them back where they came from, if you don't need the cheap labour force anymore, what's the problem? Call your doctors back from Switzerland first though.

edit: Yes, I know exactly what incident you're mentioning. The guy was a Bulgarian gypsy, the same guy you've fought so hard to defend his human rights in this thread. Good job.

 

[Crni Vuk]

You're under the impression that I am against this. I am in totall support of the Schengen agreement. I also have no problem with some form of border patroll and immigration laws, maybe similar to what Canada has, I also have no issue with screening immigrants, for criminal records for example, I don't want rapists, drug dealers or violent people here. Nothing speaks against measures to make sure that we do something here.
What I have a problem with, is generalisations, biggoted and xenophobic rhetoric that is not aiming at solving the issue or finding solutions that work, but in appealing to the masses and the lizard part of the voters brain.
See, there are a lot of measures people are crying for, that have simply proven not to be effective, like racial profiling, a muslim registriation and now the 'ban' of 7 nations. More regulations are one thing, acting out of fear, xenophobia and in some cases blatant racism, isn't going to get us anywhere. Particularly when you consider how much surveilance IS already in place, in Britain, France, Germany and the US. And I don't understand this fear anyway, as like those nations never ever had to deal with terrorism in the past. IRA in Britain, RAF in Germany, Organisation armée secrète in France, ETA in Spain and so on and so on.
Our strength, as civiliced and democratic society is the fact that we're constitutional states, with clear laws and where we treat people as individuals, not as entity, we might judge people for being members of terrorist organisations like ISIS, but we do not punish people for something others did, if they didn't had a part in it. And, people are innocent as long as they aren't proven to be guility. And I am not ready to give that up, just because there are a bunch of brown people coming our way fleeing economic shit holes, where we also often have a part in - Africa the garbage dumb of Europe. - South African protesters say EU is dumping low cost chickens.http://www.africamission-mafr.org/chicken.htm

 

[TheGM]

"guys, guys Christians can be just as bad as Muslims because one time 800 years ago CRUSADES!"

Send them back where they came from, if you don't need the cheap labour force anymore, what's the problem? Call your doctors back from Switzerland first though.

edit: Yes, I know exactly what incident you're mentioning. The guy was a Bulgarian gypsy, the same guy you've fought so hard to defend his human rights in this thread. Good job.

BWAHAHAHAHAH! golden, absolutly golden.

 

[Crni Vuk]

OH yeah! DAMN! YOU TOTALL GOT ME NOW! D:! What will Vuk do! Can he recover from that? You guys don't get the irony if it would hit you with a hammer. Because I never got tired to mention in this topic, that one has to differntiate and treat people as individuals.
I am not the one that rationalized the killing of innocent people.

Seriously now, something I don't understand. What is wrong with your heads guys? Why does it make you so happy to see that people are getting treated like shit, people you don't know, people you have no information about, what ever if they are criminals or not. It seems like you get a bonner from terrorist attackks or someting, just lurking behind every news, so you can point your fingers at someone, seee! Seeeee! They are all evil! Now believe us and ban them finally! Some kind of perverted obsession if you ask me ...

 

[valcik]

This all is your imagination summed up nicely, Crni. Including that straw man about rationalization of "innocent people killed". Regressive leftist's hysteria.

 

[CT Phipps]

Aside from the cock-up about Vietnam I made, this is the other Jon Oliver show I agree with. He and I are share views on immigration and refugees.

7:20 is hilarious if you don't want to watch the whole thing.



9:30 also mentions Slovakia.

It's a year old but sadly more relevant than ever.

----

Oh, and the guy who shot 5 Black Lives Matter protestors was found guilty.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/minnesota-man-who-shot-5-black-lives-matter-protesters-found-guilty/

 

[Crni Vuk]

This all is your imagination summed up nicely, Crni. Including that straw man about rationalization of "innocent people killed". Regressive leftist's hysteria.

Maybe you don't give a shit if someone shoots people that MAYBE are criminals. But for me someone is innocent as long he wasn't proven to be guility. For you it seems like it's already enough if a Roma is on wellfare, to be considered 'guility'. I mean they deserved everything they got, right? Maybe you think that someone who's killing thiefs and drug dealers, is a super hero. But I don't. Because I want to live in a civiliced society. Dude, the guy you're worshiping, isn't the Punisher.

 

[valcik]

It seems like you get a bonner from terrorist attackks or someting, just lurking behind every news, so you can point your fingers at someone, seee! Seeeee! They are all evil!

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you brought the news here. Twice! "GYPSY FAMILY KILLED IN TERRORIST ATTACK, LOOK!!! THE WHITE EVIL RAYCIST!!!" Well, I do remember the incident from 6 years ago, our media reported for quite some time about this one. According to the interviewed witnesses, killed family was unemployed and living on welfare. White family according to wiki, not gypsy family as you've painted it. Did you get boner while bringing it up?

Maybe you don't give a shit if someone shoots people that MAYBE are criminals.

The second time you brought the news - Berlin incident commited by Bulgarian gypsy with criminal record in Bulgaria. Yes, I double checked, he's criminal. Did you get boner again for bringing this news?

For you it seems like it's already enough if a Roma is on wellfare, to be considered 'guility'. I mean they deserved everything they got, right? Maybe you think that someone who's killing thiefs and drug dealers, is a super hero. But I don't. Because I want to live in a civiliced society. Dude, the guy you're worshiping, isn't the Punisher.

If everything else fails (twice!) ad hominem would do the trick. Very civilized, such a German gentleman you are! Suit yourself.

 

[CaptJ]

Fine nationality then! It still doesn't change the fact that the Germans (and many other 'nations') havn't been stoped by religion not beeing a race to well, fight people following a religion like as they would have been a different race.

This has been discussed already. Jews don't seek out converts unlike Christians and Muslims; and laws of the countries that they lived in expressly forbid them from converting people similarly to the laws that forbid them from owning farm land. In fact, I remember hearing that being Jewish can only be inherited from the mother.

The persecution of the Jews is not the same as refusing mass immigration from certain countries or even explicitly Muslims themselves. I saw an interview with a Holocaust survivor which the interviewer tried to link the Holocaust to immigration crisis. The interviewer then said with a straight face to the Holocaust survivor that anti-Semitism doesn't exist anymore in an attempt to imply Islamophobia is the new hate movement.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Muslims =/= Bodysnatchers man. Are we back to the Europe will be a Shariah state in 20 years! When will you people be satisfied? When we have a 'Muslim' ban in Europe? Damn! We still have economic issues and/or terrorist attacks! I know! Let us get a registry for all the muslims! Damn! We still have economic issues and/or even more terrorist attacks! I know! Internment camps for muslims! Damn! We still ...

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO REPEAT THAT I DO NOT OPPOSE BETTER/STRONGER IMMIGRATION LAWS AND PROCEDURES WHERE IT MAKES SENSE! BUT REFUGEES =/= IMMIGRANTS, FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Why don't you guys actually go out, look for the nearest mosque in your town or village or what ever, and just TALK(!) to those people. Why don't you try to actually get your self FAMILIAR with them, before you declare it a national crysis. Go and talk to an imam, and ask them about their religion and how he deals with the questionable chapters of the Quaran. You might be surprised by some of their answers, you know:

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but you brought the news here. Twice! "GYPSY FAMILY KILLED IN TERRORIST ATTACK, LOOK!!! THE WHITE EVIL RAYCIST!!!" Well, I do remember the incident from 6 years ago, our media reported for quite some time about this one. According to the interviewed witnesses, killed family was unemployed and living on welfare. White family according to wiki, not gypsy family as you've painted it. Did you get boner while bringing it up?

Dude, I get it, you're a racist, I can read between the lines. You don't mind a psycho killing people, as long as they are 'supposed' criminals and/or on wellfare sucking on the tits of the true hard working Slovakian people paying their taxes. I can live with that, you should really be honest with your self, you will probably enjoy a much happier live that way. All that preasure and angst.

 

[CT Phipps]

The thing is that people who hate Muslims don't usually hide it or have shame about it. They're all for a Muslim ban.

 

[Supreme Shah Ismail]

"guys, guys Christians can be just as bad as Muslims because one time 800 years ago CRUSADES!"

BWAHAHAHAHAH! golden, absolutly golden.

Ah yes how could we forget European colonialism which happened 800 years ago right? Oh wait no it didn't it ended in the fucking 70's. Which was motivated by what? God, glory and gold. Emphasis on the god part. Christians going into Africa and North America and completely erasing the cultures and languages of those places. Why is that some African countries speak English? How is that right?

Yes it is true the caliphs attempted to Arabize the lands they conquered. As far as im concerned the caliphs can rot in hell. Ismail himself rather famously destroyed the tombs of several Abbasid caliphs, a long with in 1508 sitting in a boat on the Tigris drinking wine while watching the executions of his enemy's (why I think hes a bad ass as a historical figure) But they failed to Arabize Persia which maintained its own non Arab ethnic and linguistic identity. The Turks weren't Arabized, they became Persianized. Arabic cultural hegemony faded when the Abbasid caliphate began to crumble and by the time of the rise of the gun powder empires the dominant culture in the region was Persian from Istanbul to Delhi to Samarkand to Isfahan and beyond. But what could you say of Latin America? Do any native languages survive and spoken in mass? Is everyone there not Catholic? Do you honestly not think that given the chance evangelicals wouldn't be any different than a mullah in power?

It is unfortunate that so many people are so willfully ignorant. Shame really. I wonder when they will realize that the rise of ISIS and all these terror attacks are entirely their own fault. What happens when you bomb, exploit and meddle in a region for decades? It blows up in your god damn face that's what.

 

[CT Phipps]

It is unfortunate that so many people are so willfully ignorant. Shame really. I wonder when they will realize that the rise of ISIS and all these terror attacks are entirely their own fault. What happens when you bomb, exploit and meddle in a region for decades? It blows up in your god damn face that's what.

I find that normalizes ISIS a great deal. I'm not in any position to judge the conditions or after effects or losses on the ground in the Middle East but ISIS is....well, crazy. They're crazy in a way which is antithetical to Islam as well as the people who lived in Iraq and Syria. Their behavior, beliefs, and actions may cloak themselves in the banner of religion as well as anti-West resistance but their actions are of the most heinous war crimes imaginable, particularly against women. It's like judging Europeans by Nazis or saying the French "reaped what they sewed" when a bunch of ideological psychopaths came to murder them.

Not the least of which being I'm NOT speaking about ISIS' American victims but the people who suffer from them most: people in Syria, Iraq, and since they absorbed it--the victims of Boka Haram. ISIS' chief victims are their fellow Muslims and they love pretending otherwise but the atrocities committed against them are uncountable. They just love doing the magic trick of pretending it's not the case by pretending they're fighting the West when it's heroic Arab men (and women) resisting them through a variety of ways to preserve their way of life.

Which feeds back into the larger issues of a lot of peace-making problems as the atrocities committed against various sides are certainly real--there's usually going to be a cycle of vengeance at work. Colonialism is pleasantly unambiguous in the fact it was a bunch of racist assholes coming to rob the continent blind but it's also a pleasantly LIE-based narrative that it was all the Evil Westerners when collusion, collaboration, and different degrees were involved. There's also places where peace and joy was uprooted by European Colonialism and many places where one tyrannical ethnic group was uprooted by another.

Because this is a video game formula, I'm going to bring up THE SABOTEUR for an example of "convenient history." The Saboteur was a great game but it's also complete bullshit with history. I don't go to my video games for history but it's designed to tell a narrative which excises all elements which the audience might find inconvenient and I mean ALL of them. For example - They remove VICHY FRANCE from the forces allied with the Nazis.

Which is just....silly.

In general people will always side with "their" side but a neutral version of history (which will never happen because history is fundamentally storytelling) is necessary. Also, a general disregard for the necessity of justice and vengeance versus peace. Because there's never really an end to it. Vendettas are being made all across the world but there's rarely any "good" guy in them.

Even if there's often a whole lot of bad.

 

[valcik]

Dude, I get it, you're a racist, I can read between the lines. You don't mind a psycho killing people, as long as they are 'supposed' criminals and/or on wellfare sucking on the tits of the true hard working Slovakian people paying their taxes. I can live with that, you should really be honest with your self, you will probably enjoy a much happier live that way. All that preasure and angst.

Just keep fabricating that "white evil raycist!" enemies you need so badly, kiddo. You just cannot admit you were wrong and your flawed logic driven by leftist propaganda cannot accept any rational argument anymore. What a waste of time..

edit:
Since you keep bringing dat evil white raycist nazism and literally holokaust!!1! here, I'd like to point out that uncle Dolphi was a honorable moslem too.

Are you aware of Palestinian moslem nationalist Amin al-Husseini and his friendship with the nazi regime? After he killed thousands of Jews in his anti-British revolution, he fled do Lebanon as a refugee. From here he promised free access to Iranian oil fields to German nazis in exchange for their military help. Since the movement of armies commanded by Hitler and Mussolini was stopped at Tobruk by allied forces, this plan for mutual military cooperation between Hitler and Husseini failed eventualy, so Husseini ran away and he ended as a refugee in Germany in 1941. As a gesture of appreciation he gave a "Honorable Moslim" title to uncle Adolf, and in return he took a "Honorable Aryan" title from Dolphi. Such a cute friends, these two gentlemen! In 1942 this moslem nationalist founded and opened Islamische Zentralinstitut in Berlin and became one of the best friends with SS officer Adolf Eichmann, the main architect of nazi holokaust.

But hey, just keep repeating that moslems dindu nuffin! That would surely make you feel much better and more righteous in your holy leftist crusade against evil rayicist.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

It is unfortunate that so many people are so willfully ignorant. Shame really. I wonder when they will realize that the rise of ISIS and all these terror attacks are entirely their own fault. What happens when you bomb, exploit and meddle in a region for decades? It blows up in your god damn face that's what.

People realize it's part of the reason. It's just not the only reason.

Latin America has had the same kind of meddling occur in their territories, yet they are not bombing/terrorizing the Western superpowers for past slights. I'll let you figure out why that is.

 

[Throatpunch]

The Thugees did exist you fucking idiot.

http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/thuggees-cult-assassins-india-002145

Go back to revising your own shitty history, not everyone else's

 

[MutantScalper]

Just keep fabricating that "white evil raycist!" enemies you need so badly, kiddo. You just cannot admit you were wrong and your flawed logic driven by leftist propaganda cannot accept any rational argument anymore. What a waste of time..

edit:
Since you keep bringing dat evil white raycist nazism and literally holokaust!!1! here, I'd like to point out that uncle Dolphi was a honorable moslem too.

Are you aware of Palestinian moslem nationalist Amin al-Husseini and his friendship with the nazi regime? After he killed thousands of Jews in his anti-British revolution, he fled do Lebanon as a refugee. From here he promised free access to Iranian oil fields to German nazis in exchange for their military help. Since the movement of armies commanded by Hitler and Mussolini was stopped at Tobruk by allied forces, this plan for mutual military cooperation between Hitler and Husseini failed eventualy, so Husseini ran away and he ended as a refugee in Germany in 1941. As a gesture of appreciation he gave a "Honorable Moslim" title to uncle Adolf, and in return he took a "Honorable Aryan" title from Dolphi. Such a cute friends, these two gentlemen! In 1942 this moslem nationalist founded and opened Islamische Zentralinstitut in Berlin and became one of the best friends with SS officer Adolf Eichmann, the main architect of nazi holokaust.

But hey, just keep repeating that moslems dindu nuffin! That would surely make you feel much better and more righteous in your holy leftist crusade agains evil rayicist.

The issue of Jewish Zionists moving into Palestine to start their own holy land for the chosen people there was already going before WW 2. Some Muslims co-operated with the Third Reich, then again a lot of Muslims ended up in concentration camps like Jasenovac because they were Muslims. So you want to get into the whole Zionism vs. Palestinians - debate here and use that to somehow make all racism everywhere ok?

People realize it's part of the reason. It's just not the only reason.

Latin America has had the same kind of meddling occur in their territories, yet they are not bombing/terrorizing the Western superpowers for past slights. I'll let you figure out why that is.

There is a LOT of anti-western attitude in South and all of Latin America (including the middle part with Mexico etc.). And with Trump banging the beat on the drums of racism, I think we're about to see something interesting there in the very near future.

Hell, we even have an Argentinian guy here on this board who is pretty feisty and adamant about the Falklands island, maybe you have met him? So I don't think you're giving us the full picture about the Latin American world and anti-US and anti-western feelings there.

 

[CaptJ]

The thing is that people who hate Muslims don't usually hide it or have shame about it. They're all for a Muslim ban.

Then why did they put the effort not to call it a Muslim ban?

Aside from the cock-up about Vietnam I made, this is the other Jon Oliver show I agree with. He and I are share views on immigration and refugees.

7:20 is hilarious if you don't want to watch the whole thing.



9:30 also mentions Slovakia.

It's a year old but sadly more relevant than ever.

I heard this argument before and I believe that the flaw of that study is not taking account to demographical difference between the countries. They probably wouldn't touch that because of the perceived racism. A lot of those who push the economical argument for accepting refugees are openly globalist. They genuinely believe in a world without boarders.

TABARROK: It’s actually very simple. You take a person from a poor country, a country like Haiti for example, and you bring them to the United States or another developed country, and their wages go up. Three times, four times, fives times. I’m told, sometimes as much as ten times. So, it’s an incredible increase in living standards simply by moving someone from where their labor has low value, moving them to where their labor has high value. It’s far more effective than any other anti-poverty program we’ve ever tried.

DUBNER: So, that sounds good on the input side. What about on the output side? Or the emigrating side? So, if I say, “You know, I think I’m going to take the 10 percent best, smartest, hardest-working, most devoted potential employees or students from country X, Haiti,” what does that do to Haiti? Is that a tide that lifts all boats? Or does it lift my boat and the boats of the 10 percent who get here?

TABARROK: So, I think there are two points to make here: First of all, the 10 percent of Haiti, Haiti doesn’t have a right to say, “We own these people. And they’re going to be chained to our country because if we let them go, the rest of us are going to be worse off.” That’s not how we treat people. Now, on the economic issue, what does happen? It actually looks like everybody is better off. First of all, the Haitians that move, they maintain ties with their older country, they send back lots of remittances, which are again, a very effective anti-poverty program. It’s much better for example, if parents send back money to their kids in Haiti or to their grandparents in Haiti. That’s a much more effective program — individual money transfers — than a transfer of money from one government to another government. So, overall this interconnecting of the world, I think, makes pretty much everyone better off.

I'm not in any position to judge the conditions or after effects or losses on the ground in the Middle East but ISIS is....well, crazy. They're crazy in a way which is antithetical to Islam as well as the people who lived in Iraq and Syria.

Please answer me in a straight forward way. How is ISIS antithetical to Islam?

People realize it's part of the reason. It's just not the only reason.

Latin America has had the same kind of meddling occur in their territories, yet they are not bombing/terrorizing the Western superpowers for past slights. I'll let you figure out why that is.

People are stuck using flawed heuristics to explain human behavior. I really dislike the myth that poverty is the cause of terrorism.

Also, a general disregard for the necessity of justice and vengeance versus peace. Because there's never really an end to it. Vendettas are being made all across the world but there's rarely any "good" guy in them.

Trust and revenge are two sides of the same coin. Social contracts are made with trust or the fear of punishment. If X person steals Y person's goat and runs off, Y person has a choice to find X person or to leave him alone. If the cost of catching X person is higher than the cost of the stolen goat, then logical choice is to leave him alone. However, leaving X person alone gives the impression that Y person will not retaliate against future goat thefts. Human interactions are a lot more complex than you make it out to be.

 

[valcik]

So you want to get into the whole Zionism vs. Palestinians - debate here and use that to somehow make all racism everywhere ok?

Nope, the point is that while some crazy leftists keep fabricating "dat white raycist killers" everywhere, they don't see through their blinders the biggest monument of antisemitism in whole Germany founded and opened by moslem refugee. Selective memory, or just ignorance of these historical events?