Muuuuuuuslim Baaaaaan! But don't call it that!

[CT Phipps]

Please answer me in a straight forward way. How is ISIS antithetical to Islam?

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, they're kind of massacring large numbers of Muslims. The Koran frowns on that even when it favors going to war with non-monotheistic faiths.

Note they are also massacring Christians who are protected under the book.

So are Jews notably.

So are NON-COMBATANTS notably.

"And fight in the cause of God those who fight against you, and do not commit aggression. Indeed God does not love those who are aggressors," (The Quran, 2:190).

The Caliphate is something that split Islam from the beginning on who to be in charge of it but ISIS has no claim to it other than the fact they said so.

You could make an argument about the brutal treatment of women being allowed by interpretations of the Koran but the fact is that you can make that argument for Jews to massacre all non-Jews. Islam has moved on past the dark days of society and ISIS wishes to recreate the worst evils of the past. But even if they did, they'd be executed for the fact they war on other Muslims and slaughter of noncombatants.

Not the least, again, many of their brutal mistreatment of women are illegal to do against Muslim women.

Which they do.

Note: TAMERLANE thought waging war on his fellow Muslims and the atrocities (based on his love of Genghis Khan) was wrong and it was actually something that imperiled his soul.

Note this is all dark age fundamentalist militant interpretations of the scripture they're fucking up. Actual pacifist and progressive Muslims (and I mean progressive by not the fucking Dark Ages like most Muslim nations ARE) they're just sickening monsters.

It's the irony really Saudi Arabia is the place most Americans think of for Muslim culture and that's kind of awful by any standard but ISIS makes SA look positively benevolent.

People are stuck using flawed heuristics to explain human behavior. I really dislike the myth that poverty is the cause of terrorism.

On this we agree.

Terrorism is a tactic and has been used by the rich, poor, and middle-class throughout history. No one has a monopoly on killing people for ideology or intimidation through atrocity. Rich people tend not to be the people blowing up marketplaces, mind you, but plenty of terrorist organizations have rich patrons.

Certainly, the United States had many many affluent (or middle-class) backers of the IRA to the point it kept it going for decades longer than it might have otherwise. Both the United States and Soviet Union (by definition rich) also supported terrorist groups against their enemies.

Mind you, there's certainly a point that terrorism tends to flourish when people are desperate and miserable but even that's not necessary. Timothy McVeigh and Theodore Kaczynski are American examples of the trope as well the stereotype of "American rich kids joining extremist organizations" which dates back to the Sixties.

 

[CaptJ]

@CT Phipps

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"(Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to claim that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). The use of the word "persecution" by some Muslim translators is disingenuous - the actual Arabic words for persecution (idtihad) - and oppression (a variation of "z-l-m") do not appear in the verse. The word used instead, "fitna", can mean disbelief, or the disorder that results from unbelief or temptation. This is certainly what is meant in this context since the violence is explicitly commissioned "until religion is for Allah" - ie. unbelievers desist in their unbelief.

I can't read Arabic so let's not go too deep into this.

Islam has moved on past the dark days of society

Not really. Sharia law is pretty barbaric.

Note this is all dark age fundamentalist militant interpretations of the scripture they're fucking up. Actual pacifist and progressive Muslims (and I mean progressive by not the fucking Dark Ages like most Muslim nations ARE) they're just sickening monsters.

While most Filipinos are apathetic to Muslims, there is a constant fear of separatism in Mindanao.

 

[Hassknecht]

You could make an argument about the brutal treatment of women being allowed by interpretations of the Koran but the fact is that you can make that argument for Jews to massacre all non-Jews. Islam has moved on past the dark days of society and ISIS wishes to recreate the worst evils of the past. But even if they did, they'd be executed for the fact they war on other Muslims and slaughter of noncombatants.

The problem is that the islamic centre is still in Saudi Arabia, and they're pretty damn backwards. Islam still needs an Enlightenment phase.

 

[MutantScalper]

Nope, the point is that while some crazy leftists keep fabricating "dat white raycist killers" everywhere, they don't see through their blinders the biggest monument of antisemitism in whole Germany founded and opened by moslem refugee. Selective memory, or just ignorance of these historical events?

What "monument" are you talking about?

 

[valcik]

Islamische Zentralinstitute in Berlin, of course. The place served as one of the biggest hubs for antisemitic propaganda spreaded by nazi regime, with antisemitic propagandistic pamphlets printed here in Arabic language spreaded amongst the islamic prisoners of war, for instance.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Just keep fabricating that "white evil raycist!" enemies you need so badly, kiddo.

Oh, no no you got that one wrong, I don'T need to fabricate anything here, I am adressing you as in YOU as a person directly. You are a xenophobic, biggoted racist in my eyes that would not necessarily run around nazi-style killing Roma left and right, but one that would probably not mind if the state or some right-wing group would do it for them, of course only 'criminals' and those 'cockroaches' living of well-fare, of course! Only those. Ah and if a few innocent ones die, well you can not make an omlett without breaking some eggs, right . And I mean we are talking about 'gyspsis' after all! Not slovakians, no no. I got you Valcho, I got you.

 

[valcik]

You're going full retard. Never go full retard!

 

[MutantScalper]

Islamische Zentralinstitute in Berlin, of course. The place served as one of the biggest hubs for antisemitic propaganda spreaded by nazi regime, with antisemitic propagandistic pamphlets printed here in Arabic language spreaded amongst the islamic prisoners of war, for instance.

Never heard of it. Have heard of the thousands and thousands of Muslims who fought and died fighting for Allied forces and of the thousands and thousands of Muslims whom were murdered by the Axis just because they were Muslims.

And of course I've heard of Palestinians who lost their homeland due to a crime someone else committed.

 

[Crni Vuk]

There is a LOT of anti-western attitude in South and all of Latin America (including the middle part with Mexico etc.). And with Trump banging the beat on the drums of racism, I think we're about to see something interesting there in the very near future.

Hell, we even have an Argentinian guy here on this board who is pretty feisty and adamant about the Falklands island, maybe you have met him? So I don't think you're giving us the full picture about the Latin American world and anti-US and anti-western feelings there.

That is now another can of worms ... the more extreme and crazy the US politics get, the more is that having an effect on all the nations around them, like South America. Those people know, by first hand, what it means when a shit head is meddling with your government. Sadly, this also opens the door to all kind of fear mongering and rhetoric in nations like Argentina, Colombia, Brazil etc. so THEIR populists are getting stronger as well, and you can not even blame them, because Trump is someone who is the super awesome 'negotiator' by telling the President of Mexico 'well maybe we should send OUR military down there to deal with YOUR problems', which of course works wonders for relationships I assume.

Then why did they put the effort not to call it a Muslim ban?

*Shrugs*, they asked Giuliani the same question. He can probably answer that one for you.

You're going full retard. Never go full retard!

Dude, from this point on I am simply ignoring your rhetoric, why don't you do the same? I see you in the same boat as Illuminati Confirmed and Vergil. They would be the one doing the shooting of Muslims, Roma or who ever doesn't fitt your 'narrative' and you would be their cheerleader.

 

[valcik]

Don't think I am not in favour of sending tons of money and resources your way, Slovakia, Poland and all the other new members deserve all the support and help they get.

What money and resources? Elaborate. The "money" are just long-term investments provided by western capitalsts, who would get every last cent back from us. And the resources? You mean manual labour outsourced from Germany, so German capitalists can make the same product three-four times cheaper thanks to cheap labour force before selling it in Germany for the same price as before? For someone who is "a capitalism hating leftist" by his own definition you clearly are drifting in the dark, you sick smug tit.

 

[BigGuyCIA]

There is a LOT of anti-western attitude in South and all of Latin America (including the middle part with Mexico etc.). And with Trump banging the beat on the drums of racism, I think we're about to see something interesting there in the very near future.

Hell, we even have an Argentinian guy here on this board who is pretty feisty and adamant about the Falklands island, maybe you have met him? So I don't think you're giving us the full picture about the Latin American world and anti-US and anti-western feelings there.

Did I say anything regarding anti-western attitudes? Being anti-anything is one thing, but acting out on those attitudes/beliefs is another.

When the western world is plagued by Latin-American terrorists, then you might have a point. But, quite frankly, that isn't the case... and people dancing around pointing the finger at Western involvement in the ME as the sole factor for terrorism isn't helpful either.

For example, one of the reasons given by Bin Laden (for attacking the West) was involvement in East Timor - helping transfer power and independence from a Muslim country (Indonesia).

The masochism needs to stop, and it's high time the Muslim world has a religious reformation.

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, they're kind of massacring large numbers of Muslims. The Koran frowns on that even when it favors going to war with non-monotheistic faiths.

We can all agree that hypocrisy isn't exclusive to Islam. Christian texts had passage that forbade wearing wool and linen together. What's the whole "love thy neighbor" shit again? Didn't stop the Christian kingdoms from poking each other with spears for hundreds of years.

Muslim neighbors have fought amongst themselves and spilled muslim blood as well, not like their magic-man-in-the-sky has struck them off the face of the earth for it.

We're at a stage in Western society where a Christian can sit comfortably in a bar with a Jew, Muslim, and Catholic. The same cannot be said of local gathering places in rural Middle Eastern areas.

 

[Crni Vuk]

We're at a stage in Western society where a Christian can sit comfortably in a bar with a Jew, Muslim, and Catholic. The same cannot be said of local gathering places in rural Middle Eastern areas.

Depends ...set a foot in to the wrong bar with a 'middle eastern' look, or telling them that you're a jew, that works too, and well ...

The difference is, that once they bashed your skull in, your relatives can go to the police. And if you have luck, something might be done, after a couple of years, depending what ever if the wittnesses don't dissapear, or important files aren't missing or yeah such stuff.

Look, I understand that we are 'civliced' societies for the most part. But we shouldn't act like we, as in the generation that is living today, invented democracy, peace and all that stuff. Under the surface, people can get pretty unciviliced and barbaric as well. We still have good jursdiction - compared to Saudi Arabia, but we are not perfect lala wonderlands, the growing numbers of attacks on refugee camps in Germany, is a sad testimony for this reality.

 

[CaptJ]

*Shrugs*, they asked Giuliani the same question. He can probably answer that one for you.

Fair enough but it was more of a response to @CT Phipps who keeps insisting that a large portion of Americans are racist. I said that the Trump needed the Obama voters in order to win as a way to imply that most American are not racist. He tries to deflect it by call it a strawman.

Depends ...set a foot in to the wrong bar with a 'middle eastern' look, or telling them that you're a jew, that works too, and well ...

The difference is, that once they bashed your skull in, your relatives can go to the police. And if you have luck, something might be done, after a couple of years, depending what ever if the wittnesses don't dissapear, or important files aren't missing or yeah such stuff.

Look, I understand that we are 'civliced' societies for the most part. But we shouldn't act like we, as in the generation that is living today, invented democracy, peace and all that stuff. Under the surface, people can get pretty unciviliced and barbaric as well. We still have good jursdiction - compared to Saudi Arabia, but we are not perfect lala wonderlands, the growing numbers of attacks on refugee camps in Germany, is a sad testimony for this reality.

Why are you quoting me on something that I never said? Also, what is a Muslim doing in a bar? They are not suppose to drink alcohol. That first image look like someone fucked up drawing a swasthik.

 

[MutantScalper]

Crni_Vuk,

all these myriad noobs registered in late 2016 etc. just took a wrong turn on their way to Stormfront and seem to really like it here. Don't see much point in conversing with them.

Where is Sander these days anyway?

 

[CaptJ]

Where is Sander these days anyway?

Hopefully taking a class in Economics.

 

[Crni Vuk]

Why are you quoting me on something that I never said? Also, what is a Muslim doing in a bar? They are not suppose to drink alcohol. That first image look like someone fucked up drawing a swasthik.

Because of this:
We're at a stage in Western society where a Christian can sit comfortably in a bar with a Jew, Muslim, and Catholic. The same cannot be said of local gathering places in rural Middle Eastern areas.

You make it sound like every part of our 'civiliced' Europe, would be save for everyone due to the pluralistic nature of our society, where as every middle eastern place must be a pure hell hole for every foreigner. Both are just hyperboles and exagerations. There ARE(!) rural places even in Germany, where you will have a hard time as foreigner, maybe even runing into serious issues, where as there are rural places in Iran where you can visit the locals without the fear of getting your head choped off.

To say this, are there places I would probably not want to visit? Definetly. But as the child of Serbian immigrants, there are certainly places where I wouldn't feel very comfortable either, even in Germany because I would have to be worried about my safety.

What I am trying to say is this, we are all just people.

 

[CaptJ]

p drawing a swasthik.
Because of this:
We're at a stage in Western society where a Christian can sit comfortably in a bar with a Jew, Muslim, and Catholic. The same cannot be said of local gathering places in rural Middle Eastern areas.

You make it sound like every part of our 'civiliced' Europe, would be save for everyone due to the pluralistic nature of our society, where as every middle eastern place must be a pure hell hole for every foreigner. Both are just hyperboles and exagerations. There ARE(!) rural places even in Germany, where you will have a hard time as foreigner, maybe even runing into serious issues, where as there are rural places in Iran where you can visit the locals without the fear of getting your head choped off.

To say this, are there places I would probably not want to visit? Definetly. But as the child of Serbian immigrants, there are certainly places where I wouldn't feel very comfortable either, even in Germany.

What I am trying to say is this, we are all just people.

I literally never said "We're at a stage in Western society where a Christian can sit comfortably in a bar with a Jew, Muslim, and Catholic. The same cannot be said of local gathering places in rural Middle Eastern areas." @BigGuyCIA said that. see

We're at a stage in Western society where a Christian can sit comfortably in a bar with a Jew, Muslim, and Catholic. The same cannot be said of local gathering places in rural Middle Eastern areas.

 

[CT Phipps]

The problem is that the islamic centre is still in Saudi Arabia, and they're pretty damn backwards. Islam still needs an Enlightenment phase.

Saudi Arabia is the place where Islam's cultural origin is located. It's not the center of the religion in terms of any kind of leadership position. It's a bit like saying Israel is the center for Christian government. Generally, Islamic states look to their own interpretations.

Also, that's just SUNNI Islamic states as Iran has its own places.

Also, @CaptJ, you seem bothered by the idea of acknowledged widespread racism. What do you think being a racist requires? Just curious what your goalposts are for a person to be racist in your view that it's so offensive America has a lot of them.

 

[MutantScalper]

Hopefully taking a class in Economics.

What? Do you know who Sander is?

 

[Crni Vuk]

I literally never said "We're at a stage in Western society where a Christian can sit comfortably in a bar with a Jew, Muslim, and Catholic. The same cannot be said of local gathering places in rural Middle Eastern areas." @BigGuyCIA said that. see

Aaaah! Sorry about that. NO clue how I mixed that one up! :/