Things you like from Fallout 3

[RangerBoo]

Fallout 3, unlike 4, pretty much nails what the pre-war world was like head on. I remember I once heard Fallout 4 described as "A Middle class take on the apocalypse" where you see it from the perspective of someone with a comfortable life prior to it, completely uncritical of their government or military, suddenly thrown in to a world where all that's gone.

Fallout 3 portrays the pre-war world how it should be portrayed: a world with all the problems of the real world, exaggurated to absurdity by societal collapse. The nuclear war was inevitable given the fights for the last remaining resources on the planet. There are multiple areas where I feel this comes up:

• The Capitol Post articles are generally hilarious and a treat to read. It strikes this perfect balance between blatant propaganda, and a genuine news article, where it still feels believable. Lines like "It would appear that Washington's tolerance for American social disorder has finally reached its breaking point." and "The President himself has been forced to substitute cube steak for his nightly prime rib, and the only wine available is a detestable Chateau Montrose 2043." are just a work of art, and exactly emphasise everything wrong with the pre-war world.
• Hubris Comics felt like an accurate portrayal of what pop-culture would look like in the pre-war Fallout Universe. Going off of 50s pop culture, despite being overused in Fallout 3, felt fitting. Grognack the Barbarian and Captain Cosmos felt like franchises that would exist in this universe. I especially like how they have comics like "Grognak visits the troops" and straight up a franchise called "Tales from the front line", which describes the """"liberation"""" of Canada. You can't go wrong with War Propaganda, and I respect that.
• Tranquility Lane serves as a perfect representation of pre-war America. A seemingly idyllic simulation of a pre-war town, plagued by the anxieties of it. The presence of the Pint-Sized Slasher, and the absurd Chinese invasion protocol, feels like a good insight in to pre-war anxieties.
  
• Liberty Prime, and the Prototype Medic Armour. Need I say more?
  
• I like the notes in the Pentagon that implies the US Government is literally using mind control techniques to try and induce patriotism in the general population to aid with the war effort.
• While this is more clarified by Fallout New Vegas, the fact that the US Government was using shock collars to keep prisoners in line is pretty accurate to how I imagine the justice system in the pre-war world operates. Hard punitive retribution designed to create obedience seems accurate for the totalitarian war-economy of the pre-war world.
• The Museum of Technology was cool conceptually, though it could use a lot more fleshing out. I especially like how the US takes credit for the first man in space, and it explicitly mentions that both the USSR and China dispute this claim. I can imagine pre-war America rewriting Yuri Gagarin out of history
• The idea of secret Communist insurgents spreading propaganda throughout radio channels in the United States was quite cool. It's ashame they had to ruin it with "Evil chinese Ghouls that kill everyone on sight because they're eeeeviiiiil" or whatever.
• Some of Operation Anchorage, like the Dragoon Armour, or whatever was cool, and gave more insight in to what the Chinese combat capabilities were.
• Some of the lore-regarding Vault-Tec, seeing acceptance/rejection letters from Vault-Tec, seeing what life on the inside of a Vault is like from birth to death. That was pretty cool, and I feel handled well, when divorced from the utter mess that Vault 101 is.

Overall, I'd say they have good presentation of the pre-war world. It's ashame they are obsessed with/can't move past it.

I actually like some of the things you mentioned. Things like The Capital Post, Hubris Comics, The Museum of Technology and Pentagon notes added some decent world building and glimpse into what life was like in pre-war America. It was not the ideal past that many in the wasteland long for. It was a draconian world where the elites were in charge and it was filled with propaganda in order to instill a sense of loyalty and obligation to the populace. They were also not above using tactics like brainwashing in order to control the populace. Really, notes and terminal entries are really all that is needed to explore life in pre-war America. You don't need to start the game in pre-war America and have the player play someone from the pre-war. Bethesda really needs to tamper down their obsession with pre-war America.

 

[Jogre]

Really, notes and terminal entries are really all that is needed to explore life in pre-war America

Even then, Fallout 3 goes overboard with the existence of literally every location needing explaining as well as some drama that occured there.

I feel like 200 years in the future, answers on the pre-war world wouldn't be available on a silver platter.

You don't need to start the game in pre-war America and have the player play someone from the pre-war. Bethesda really needs to tamper down their obsession with pre-war America.

The funny thing about that is how it adds literally nothing to Fallout 4.

A pre-war hero is something I can get behind. Most Fallout protagonists start from a place of relative isolation: a vault, or an isolationist mountain tribe, or whatever, but in most cases, the player's identity as a Tribal or Vault Dweller, as well as their connection to their home is something that's directly relevant to the game.

But then Bethesda being Bethesda it only comes up in one quest, AND the pre-war start adds literally no insight to the pre-war world other than "There was nukes, people survived in Vaults" which is literally the most basic understanding that everyone already has of the pre-war.

A character's background being relevant seems like one of the most basic parts of the game, and somehow they still fail.

 

[CT Phipps]

I wanted to write a Mod for Fallout 4's Pre-War sequence but I have no programming skill but it would have allowed you to wander around your neighborhood and encounter things that would make it less idyllic:

* A group of Greaser delinquents trying to steal your gas or fusion coils from your car. You have to kill one or two of them to make them flee. Otherwise, they will kill you.

* Giving the lesbian couple across the street some dialogue if you sneak up on them where they're scared their neighbors aren't buying the "roomates" story and if its discovered that they might lose their jobs or be taken for re-education.

* Mentioning the only food they have is Sugar Bombs until the next rationing card comes.

Stuff like that would have really made it much more powerful, IMHO.

Mind you, killing your spouse was a STUPID idea.

I feel like Fallout 3 was better at handling Pre-War worldbuilding.

 

[RangerBoo]

I wanted to write a Mod for Fallout 4's Pre-War sequence but I have no programming skill but it would have allowed you to wander around your neighborhood and encounter things that would make it less idyllic:

* A group of Greaser delinquents trying to steal your gas or fusion coils from your car. You have to kill one or two of them to make them flee. Otherwise, they will kill you.

* Giving the lesbian couple across the street some dialogue if you sneak up on them where they're scared their neighbors aren't buying the "roomates" story and if its discovered that they might lose their jobs or be taken for re-education.

* Mentioning the only food they have is Sugar Bombs until the next rationing card comes.

Stuff like that would have really made it much more powerful, IMHO.

Mind you, killing your spouse was a STUPID idea.

I feel like Fallout 3 was better at handling Pre-War worldbuilding.

The player exploring pre-war life, like say, a few days before the bombs fell would have been better. They could have done a sequence like with Fallout 3's beginning. The player could have explored the town with their spouse and see things like:
~ Riot officers in either riot gear or power armor patrolling the town or beating up some protestors.
~ Chinese citizens being questioned or forced into the back of a van by riot officers. (Remember, there was an interment camp for Chinese citizens in Old World Blues.)
~ Protestors protesting the US government handling of the New Plague Virus or the annexation of Canada.
~ Have your spouse or neighbors mention how their food is being rationed.
~ Show that the town you are at is gated off from the rest of state. Indicting that the US government is losing control of maintaining law and order.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

The one thing that I liked better in Fallout 3 was the retcon that ghouls are created from radiation instead of being a mix of FEV and radiation. I didn't like that the FEV created next to everything from the original Fallout's and actually liked the idea of radiation creating some of the mutants we see in the wasteland. It kind of goes with how people of the past believed that radiation makes things either bigger or horribly mutates people instead of what we actually know of radiation today. Plus, it added a little more diversity with the mutants in Fallout with not everything being a result of FEV.

I used to feel this way too, but there’s just seemingly so much evidence that ghouls are a product of FEV as well as radiation. Like how Harold and Talius are more or less indistinguishable from Necropolis ghouls, despite being created through FEV exposure. And if ghouls were solely caused by radiation, then how come we’ve never heard of them before the Great War? Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened, and I believe Tel Aviv got wiped out by nukes as well, although that might be nu-canon. Also the fact that no animals seem to turn into ghoulified versions, only humans.

I don’t think that FEV should be responsible for EVERY mutation (although I do think that fallout 1 implies this as well), but I feel like extreme mutations like super mutants, or, I don’t know, people surviving lethal radiation and turning into rotting abominations should be the result of some FEV influence. I could see radiation causing mutations in humans such as Trogs, Slags, hunchbacks, dwarves, or three armed people, but ghouls are just such an extreme type of mutant.

Anyway, not trying to start an argument or get off topic here, these are just my feelings on the matter.

 

[RangerBoo]

I used to feel this way too, but there’s just seemingly so much evidence that ghouls are a product of FEV as well as radiation. Like how Harold and Talius are more or less indistinguishable from Necropolis ghouls, despite being created through FEV exposure. And if ghouls were solely caused by radiation, then how come we’ve never heard of them before the Great War? Hiroshima and Nagasaki happened, and I believe Tel Aviv got wiped out by nukes as well, although that might be nu-canon. Also the fact that no animals seem to turn into ghoulified versions, only humans.

I don’t think that FEV should be responsible for EVERY mutation (although I do think that fallout 1 implies this as well), but I feel like extreme mutations like super mutants, or, I don’t know, people surviving lethal radiation and turning into rotting abominations should be the result of some FEV influence. I could see radiation causing mutations in humans such as Trogs, Slags, hunchbacks, dwarves, or three armed people, but ghouls are just such an extreme type of mutant.

Anyway, not trying to start an argument or get off topic here, these are just my feelings on the matter.

Oh, no, it's fine. Having friendly debates and discussions is what makes this forum fun. Especially when it comes to Fallout. I greatly enjoy debating the lore and what not. Me and @CT Phipps are on friendly terms with each other and he loves Fallout 3 while I am the exact opposite. Doesn't mean we can't have a friendly debate on what we like and dislike.

 

[CT Phipps]

I think the issue with FEV exposure creating ghouls is that it runs into the issue that a lot of people HATE with Fallout 3, ironically, which is the fact that FEV is suddenly everywhere. One of the most frequent complaints about Fallout 3 is the fact that Super Mutants are in the East Coast despite what an elaborate series of circumstances was required to create Super Mutants in the first place. Not even the Enclave had access to FEV in Fallout 2. They had to break into the old WestTec pits at Mariposa military base in order to get access to the Secret of the OozeTM (gratuitous Turtles reference).

If FEV was in the wind, air, lunchables, and so on as it would be to create the world's ghoul population and other mutations then you wouldn't need to have much difficulty making more of it. It also questions why the Enclave would want it to be their WMD of choice since everyone would have a little partial exposure.

The big argument FOR FEV is that, well, obviously radiation doesn't ACTUALLY make people into ghouls. It's an attempt to use FEV as a handwave to RL science that isn't really necessary.

As for Harold, I chalk that up to graphical limitations. Harold is a guy with horrific facial deformities that have melted his skin around him that just so happens to be the world's puniest Super Mutant. Ghouls are meant to be people who have zombie-like appearances. Frankly, I think they overdid that and they were never meant to be actually undead as the games effectively treat them. They're supposed to be able to eat, drink, and presumably shit since they need a Well in the first game. Even the ones in Fallout 3 should be ones that presumably would starve to death after a time.

They've just gone, well, feral, before that happens.

 

[RangerBoo]

I always chalked it up to someone having the right genetic code to become either a super mutant or ghoul. The Lieutenant mentions that The Master needs vault dwellers to create more intelligent mutants as normal wastelanders had their genetic code damaged due to radiation exposure which lead to mutants become like, well, Harry. Even then the Lieutenant stated that even with clean humans that the result may vary due to each human having a different genetic code. Harold and Talius genetic code must have been different to the point that FEV exposure made them into ghoul like mutants.
Even with ghouls the effects of radiation exposure and mutation may vary. Often the radiation eats away at their brain during mutation that they become feral. Others end up dying during the process like Trash. Those with the right genetic code end up becoming normal functioning ghouls.

 

[Iprovidelittlepianos]

I think the issue with FEV exposure creating ghouls is that it runs into the issue that a lot of people HATE with Fallout 3, ironically, which is the fact that FEV is suddenly everywhere. One of the most frequent complaints about Fallout 3 is the fact that Super Mutants are in the East Coast despite what an elaborate series of circumstances was required to create Super Mutants in the first place. Not even the Enclave had access to FEV in Fallout 2. They had to break into the old WestTec pits at Mariposa military base in order to get access to the Secret of the OozeTM (gratuitous Turtles reference).

If FEV was in the wind, air, lunchables, and so on as it would be to create the world's ghoul population and other mutations then you wouldn't need to have much difficulty making more of it. It also questions why the Enclave would want it to be their WMD of choice since everyone would have a little partial exposure.

The big argument FOR FEV is that, well, obviously radiation doesn't ACTUALLY make people into ghouls. It's an attempt to use FEV as a handwave to RL science that isn't really necessary.

As for Harold, I chalk that up to graphical limitations. Harold is a guy with horrific facial deformities that have melted his skin around him that just so happens to be the world's puniest Super Mutant. Ghouls are meant to be people who have zombie-like appearances. Frankly, I think they overdid that and they were never meant to be actually undead as the games effectively treat them. They're supposed to be able to eat, drink, and presumably shit since they need a Well in the first game. Even the ones in Fallout 3 should be ones that presumably would starve to death after a time.

They've just gone, well, feral, before that happens.

I agree that if ghouls are to be found all over the wasteland then having them be a result of FEV would make FEV far more prevalent then it should be. The solution to this of course is to make it so ghouls only exist in that area of California around the Glow, but then we’d miss out on some great ghoul characters like Raul, who clearly wasn’t created at Necropolis.

Then again, I just realized that if airborne FEV from the Glow could travel all the way to necropolis then it probably would have travelled pretty far south into Mexico, so it’s possible that Raul actually WAS created through FEV with radiation.

But ultimately I think it’s nice to have ghouls everywhere (though rare) and not link them to FEV at West-Tek. It’s just that the whole reason I hate on Bethesda games lore is because they’re often inconsistent with the interplay lore, so why should I give ghouls the exception when everything that ZAX says points to the fact that radiation doesn’t cause mutations like that, FEV does. It’s just so annoying to have to pick and choose with this universe...

 

[CT Phipps]

Well it's an unfortunate fact that the Fallout Bible, Fallout 1, and Fallout 2 are all full of retcons and inconsistencies.

Some of them are good (The Vaults are EVIL! EVIL!) and some are terrible and some are just....inconsistent.

As Indy would say, "I'm just making this up as I go along."

 

[CT Phipps]

I honestly wish they had put in some Elder Scrolls-level effort with the history of their own version of the setting. While very few people stop to read the hundreds of books leftover from Morrowwind, I wouldn't have minded them doing the same for a history of the Capital Wasteland. When they actually bother to do stories from the Pre-War era, they're usually good (see the police station database) but it feels too much like 25 to 30 years after the apocalypse rather than 200. It was a flaw of fallout 4 (among many many others) that they NEEDED a history there to justify what the fuck the Institute was up to but it was just alluded to.

In my very brief Fallout RPG Capital Wasteland game, I had to create a whole backstory to explain the situation in the setting. The Raiders coming from the insanity-inducing vaults, Evergreen Mills being a once-vibrant community conquered in recent memory, Talon Company actually is just the Enclave's soldiers in disguise, and so on. Maybe it's just the world-builder in me but you don't need to LIKE the explanations to at least appreciate the fact they're there.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I never liked the "FEV is everywhere" plot, it seemed to me that it was made up to cover the original plot of Fallout, in which it follows the 50's trope of "radiation does everything".

Radiation being magic is retarded, but not as retarded as "Magic virus that is somehow everywhere, is magic".

 

[TorontoReign]

FEV would be everywhere though. It is a virus after all.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

FEV would be everywhere though. It is a virus after all.

Viruses aren't everywhere, most need 'something' to hang onto, like water droplets and such, surfaces, etc.

And they die without a living host, Viruses are effectively non-living parasites.

And if it was so abundant, wouldn't everyone be growing extra heads and shit? The stuff turns normal animals into hulking monstrosities.

 

[TorontoReign]

Viruses aren't everywhere, most need 'something' to hang onto, like water droplets and such, surfaces, etc.

And they die without a living host, Viruses are effectively non-living parasites.

And if it was so abundant, wouldn't everyone be growing extra heads and shit? The stuff turns normal animals into hulking monstrosities.

I could write a way out of that if you really care. It doesn't matter though because the thing I like about Fallout 3 is New Vegas.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

I could write a way out of that if you really care. It doesn't matter though because the thing I like about Fallout 3 is New Vegas.

You can write a way almost anything, or literally anything if you include literal retcons.

Doesn't make it make any more sense the way it is though. ;v

I kinda miss the naive simplicity of OG fallouts.

 

[TorontoReign]

Fallout stopped making sense when the Vaults became about social experiments instead of survival.

 

[RangerBoo]

I actually like the idea of some of the vaults being social experiments. Mainly because I can see the government elites doing something sinister like that to the populace while they will be the ones in the real and safe bunkers and shelters. Waiting out the fallout and coming out of their holes in order to make a new and better world free of the plebs who dare question them or fight at their attempts at authority.

 

[Norzan]

The problem with making radiation create mutants is that it basically means whoever threw nuclear bombs gave stronger, more resilient reinforcements to the enemy. Nuclear bombs should wipe out everything it hits.

And FEV doesn't need to be the only virus to create mutants, some others can create their own unique kind of mutants. Which is something Bethesda could have made instead of butchering the established rules to just have FEV in the East Coast.

 

[ThatZenoGuy]

The problem with making radiation create mutants is that it basically means whoever threw nuclear bombs gave stronger, more resilient reinforcements to the enemy. Nuclear bombs should wipe out everything it hits.

And FEV doesn't need to be the only virus to create mutants, some others can create their own unique kind of mutants. Which is something Bethesda could have made instead of butchering the established rules to just have FEV in the East Coast.

The nukes DID kill most people though, and whoever mutated significantly from the radiation became ghouls, who cannot even run, yet alone act as reinforcements.

The wildlife seemed to like the radiation a lot, although even then it probably killed 99% of them, only the survivors are what we see today.