At something awful, new VB screenshot

Those stories sound great! I think Fallout shouldnt be drowned in references to groups/events/people in the real world. But i dont think there anything fundamentally wrong with including some if it serves a purposed and is done well. And it sounds like it does/is.

Its really sad well never get to see this.
 
I just remembered another reason why I like using real-world religious/political groups: it gets people to discuss things.


Now this is a good argument by itself. I remember when someone showed up with a discussion about the Thomas More encounter in Fallout2. The vast majority of NMA members that responded to the topic didn`t have a clue about who he was, and an interesting discussion came up from that topic. The fact that after that the real Thomas More was named patron saint of the politicians by the Catholic church made that discussion to seem even more interesting after all this time.

But still

namely, the large cultural currency that such a real-world group would have with a given audience.

in Europe in general they are either ignored or considered an oddity, a "thing from the americans", when they aren`t acused of being CIA agents, like in some eastern countries... their beliefs aren`t well known, and the number of their followers is quite small, even in protestant countries. Therefore most of the dilemas and themes used in New Canaan wouldn`t be decoded, instead it would just seem strange to have them in the game, even more than what happened in many places that never conected the Hubbologists to a real life system of beliefs, and played it as a simple fictional cult.

I would prefer the lack of chains that a not known cult with it`s beliefs and guidelines would bring, letting the issues beeing raised without the designers feeling constrained by what is estabilished of the religion, particularly since the signs might not be so recognisable in this part of the atlantic. To raise issues is swell by me, to raise issues pertaining the mormons is ok, but to be restrained by that in designing an area and a community seems not enough, or not important enough.

Anyway i would like to play on that area, seems rich enough, but how about Ceaser`s Legions? A militaristic outfit filling the vacuum left by the decadence of the other groups seems logic, and i know it wouldn`t be of much importance to the story itself, just for future Fallout games, but still romans? What was your idea, if you don´t mind me asking? I like to study the roman times, i live near a big Roman city (in ruins of course, but well preserved) but still what is the conection to Fallout?
 
Why, exactly, would the Mormons be less inclined to survive in the Wasteland than any of the other yahoos whose decendants populated Southern California? Surviving the holocaust would have been a matter of luck, and dealing with the fallout would have weeded out the majority of survivors. Of the millions of Mormons that live in Utah, why shouldn't at least a few survive and continue the work that Joseph Smith started?
 
J.E. Sawyer said:
Again, it's not even dominantly for the sake of "accuracy". It's for the reasons I previously mentioned: namely, the large cultural currency that such a real-world group would have with a given audience.
Hmm, I have some doubt about this. Personally, I don't care about Mormons or know alot about them at all; I know a few vaguely over an internet forum. So in my case, I don't see any currency, while you also have no way of offending me since I just don't care.

Then I know a couple of people who think Mormonism is quite a ridiculous religion, and Mormons gullible fools. I can just see them interpreting your presentation of Mormons to support their views, and enjoy that tremendously. Cultural currency? Or just comedy relief?

And on the other side, there is the group of Mormons and Sympathizers. Mormons might not be offended but it just seems to be asking for trouble. Someone could interpret it as an attack on Mormonism or something. Who cares to have that kind of controversy? Who knows, the game might be banned in Germany for that or we get something like the German Fallout 2, thank you so very much.
Even assuming it doesn't hurt at all, what are the advantages? I don't see it, the only ones I could see getting something out of it are Mormons or Mormon-haters. And even then it'd not be more than a small gimmick, imo. Like the map of Munich's subway in Gabriel Knight 2. Nice. But was it important? It played in the modern world, it would have been odd seeing Munich portrayed in a way different from what it really is, that's all. But that isn't a problem here - unless you actually use Mormons and someone finds your presentation is off the mark.

Finally, I do believe that people could enjoy this part of the game just as much if it wasn't a real religion. You raised ethic (I think) questions, but it seems to me like they'd be just as "real" if it was a fictional cult.
If you don't believe in Mormonism, is it really much more than that anyway? Not to me.
 
With the apocalipse happening, but not resulting in what they thought it would, they would be a bit demoralized, to say the least...
 
Or it could be the opposite. That they'd take solace in the love of God as a means of easing through the pain of survival. Isn't that why belief systems were set up in the first place? To provide hope when there would otherwise be none?
 
Bradylama said:
Why, exactly, would the Mormons be less inclined to survive in the Wasteland than any of the other yahoos whose decendants populated Southern California? Surviving the holocaust would have been a matter of luck, and dealing with the fallout would have weeded out the majority of survivors. Of the millions of Mormons that live in Utah, why shouldn't at least a few survive and continue the work that Joseph Smith started?

Without taking sides, the arguement is on whether "real life" religions belong in a sci-fi/post-apocalypse game that has only obliquely and/or satirically included things from real life before, not whether or not its realistic to think that the mormon religion would survive an apocalypse relatively intact. In other words, it's on the setting of the game and what fits in it.
 
If you go towards lengths to have any nitwit surviving in the wasteland, then it pretty much pisses on the purpose of having the game set in the wasteland. If there's Mormons, actively living in the setting, then either the setting has been rendered to "Post-Apocalyptic Theme Park" or there's not going to be any Mormons left, or as I have mentioned (and others have pointed out), that if it were in some warped, twisted but creatively different way like the Hubologists, it would fit the setting much better.

I was mostly responding to that statement.

Although, Rosh still hasn't made any better argument against the presence of something real in a fictional setting other than it hasn't been done before. I fail to see how the presence of Mormons is laughable.
 
J.E. Sawyer said:
In the first part of your post, you ignore everything I already posted about what I consider to be the advantages of using a real-world religion. Specifically, that Christianity contains a lot of automatic cultural currency with most American and European audiences.

Which only backs up my point about a lack of creativity going around at Black Isle. You don't have to come up with anything new, because people already know what a Mormon is.

BTW, the point of me showing off the cult things from the three games was to show how far away you guys are moving from actually coming up with original ideas versus the people who made the original Fallout CRPG. Get the point now?

Why can't you satirize it?
Because the goal wasn't ridicule, the goal was legitimate examination.

Satire it's always about ridicule, but it is always about examination. So, your point = NULL.

Please forgive me if I have difficulty believing you have a sincere problem with Mormons being upset about the game that traditionally features melting children and hard drug use.

First, there's a huge difference between virtual children and imaginary drugs versus real ideologies.

Since when do you give a rat's ass about upsetting anyone?

Because some things are taboo, and some things do cross the boundry lines.

More to the point, since when do you care whom a game publisher pisses off?

I'm sorry, either you've mistaken me for someone else or you have a wildly erroneous opinion of me.

However, being a game developer, one who's livelihood kind of depends on sales of things, you should know that Mormons do tend to play games and prefer those that don't contain magic. Of any religion to not piss off when it comes to making a non-traditional fantasy CRPG, it would seem that Mormons would be the best ones not to target here.

Historical Facts: For many years, polygamy was not only allowed, but encouraged by Joseph Smith and the CoLDS. A while ago, the Living Prophet declared that he received a vision telling him that it was no longer necessary. They officially stopped doing it, but there are still examples of people who claim to be Mormons who practice polygamy or, more accurately, polygyny.

History is history. Shit happens, and while it's important not to forget history, it's also important to not rub people's noses in the problems of their pasts because the ones that exist today aren't responsible for the sins of their fathers.

Saint seems to think they were all cults; that's why I was asking.

I do consider the BoS to be at least a little cultish. They seem to have a specific goal: the preservation and protection of technology. I wouldn't go so far as to say they worship technology, but... their focus on technology combined with their traditions and quasi-knighty hierarchy make them seem cultish to me.

The Brotherhood did have rituals, they did have castes, and so forth. They were highly secretive and did have an order about them, one with a kind of spiritual sense about what they were doing. While they may not be a religious cult, they seem very cultish, like you said.

Some PCs have the ability to recognize that John is suffering from schizophrenia resulting from his time as a Night Kin scout. The implied question is: if John's visions are the result of a medical conditions, couldn't Jeremiah's be natural as well? No definitive answer is given.

But the implication is that all Mormons are crazy. After all, wouldn't you have to be crazy to follow crazy people?

Implied question: is being so strict on religious taboos worth risking destruction? Again, there is no author-defined answer.

To allow Mormons to survive as a faith, you have to put a drug smuggler who doesn't believe in the faith in charge? And Mormons are supposed to be "okay" with this? Either way, you're saying that Mormons aren't fit enough to survive a major hardship.
 
*sigh* Bishop, just because something existed, that doesn't mean that it's suitable to fit it into the setting. Let's take a closer look at this and hopefully you'll be able to see where you went wrong and put the proverbial Mormons into Star Trek. I would have thought that the parallel of New Reno would have been obvious, given that it was a wasteland and the whole mob thing in the game was kind of cute. It's been debunked a load of times before, so I'm guessing you're either being purposefully obtuse for the sake of acting like so, or your memory went to hell.

Now, onto more examples, especially from a sci-fi writing standpoint.
------

Gays are a predominant part of San Fran today, but you didn't really see any Gay Pride floats in Fallout 2, nor were the Shi/Hubologists/others holding hands, wearing rainbows, and buttfucking each other.

That may be because it was and still is irrelevant to the storyline and presentation of the setting. It's a wasteland, not a hit parade for after the bombs fall. The Mormons would have been up shit creek the first time a real shades of grey decision had to be made that also challenged their pussy-passive reality. They're too busy fucking like dumb bunnies to bring about the end of the world to really have any hope of surviving any setting in any form other than the kind of culture that leads to marketing departments.

If you really wanted to have an idyllic place to have something go wrong because they were naive, there'd certainly be areas like Shady Sands or other small communities, maybe there could be a section of a city where people are definitively staked out in territory and say "No Mutants Allowed". Racism and bigotry could be expressed in the form of speech, or actions like spitting upon someone as they walk through a town, or a variety of other methods. Making what seems to be nothing more than a clone of Vault City that is placed on the map with a giant red x, with the legend of "Here be Mormons" is pretty absurd when it has been done before almost to the letter.

You have also broken one of the most significant unwritten rules of sci-fi. Introduction of a real-world religion into a sci-fi setting when it wasn't part of the setting before does little to impress those who prefer sci-fi that isn't written by some crackpot "Creationist Scientist" or similar. Keep the religion out of my sci-fi, please; most of sci-fi and fantasy readers are of the same feeling and have been so for quite some time. We don't follow sci-fi and fantasy, which are by nature different worlds, to have to deal with a real-world religion and dogma represented in what is essentially an alternate reality. It's the reason why many of us don't care to deal with this shit again, through another medium, with what is supposedly entertainment. We've had enough of these lunatics before, and now they're going to be represented "faithfully" or in a way that doesn't offend Mormons, for what reason? Why do you have this problem in understanding this cubed tarbaby of a subject? Relion, real-world religion, and then putting it into a setting in which there was really no determinate religion set forth before, the only religions present were in small cults or shamanism, some small references and a drunk priest. BIS, again while you were still an Interplay forum fanboy, at least had the creative sense to rename the Scientologists spoof in the game. It's more than just the name, it's how the elements fit into the game, which a parody of a real-world cult tends to do so, given that cults are wont to arise in a breakdown of society, but in general cults are able to defend themselves worth a damn. Frankly, Mormons are worthy of FOT, or actually more like F:POS, considering the writing suicide attempt of including a real-world religion into a sequel of science fiction where it wasn't present in the first place.

Because there's Mormons in Utah and that was where Van Buren was set. Well, if that kind of logic passed for design decisions, I'm quite glad that I didn't have to deal with more Mormons in a game that claimed to be Fallout. By your "logic", pink and rainbow would be a prevalent theme during late-game Fallout 2. The oil tanker would have been decked out like a Carnival Cruise. With brocade. Let's not forget that Reno does have a significant gay and lesbian community as well.

Worshipping toasters (or more humorously, a TV that has video playback but no sound - possibly leading the player to disbanding the cult by sneakily repairing the TV and exposing the leader as a fraud, or be run out of the area for killing their God, depending upon various circumstances and skill checks) has more relevance to post-apocalyptic sci-fi than Mormons, and frankly, is a shitload more creative on all accounts, especially if you got into what other scraps might have been considered for use in ceremony. "Templars" with hubcaps bearing a fictional vehicle's name and with sharpened roof TV antennas are pretty amusing, when you think about it. This also fits into the general setting of Fallout much more than Mormons.

Back again to the gays. Why weren't they put into the setting? Probably because there wouldn't be much use to it, it wouldn't have appealed to the players, and it was pretty irrelevant to the designs of a post-apocalyptic world that pretty much means in itself that civilization died or is no longer anything like we should expect it to be. After all, that's why people follow the genre, but I could be mistaken. Perhaps they just like the pretty buildings in rubble.

After all, why have the Enclave? Why not go for something even more cliché, real-worldly, and would undoubtedly make some Deus Ex fan happy? FEMA! Creative? Fuck no.

Besides, I thought there was "miles-wide radioactive tornadoes" that roamed the area...

Which, if you went by how faith should be adhered to instead of medicine or poisons, reinforced by no diseases during their time in the Vault, would likely result in the Mormons praying to God as they died from the radiation. But that's if you go by the words of Joseph Smith and if the traditions are "faithfully followed", as has been claimed about the Mormon church. (Apparently, polygamy is supposed to have some function other than setting up a Jerry Springer episode of Book of Mormon proportions (can't say biblical, sorry). Maybe it's to empty the guf so Christ will come again or something like that. It's like trying to fuck the world to Judgement Day, especially if the originator of the "religion" really was trying to retain some or most of the Jewish practices and beliefs. This then brings a real possibility for a post-apocalyptic wasteland, Soylent Mormons, as they would have to resort to cannibalism to feed that many people, because they are nowhere near as dirty as the raiders who mercilessly tear them apart whenever they go to work in the fields to provide enough food for the cattle...err...flock. Mormon-on-a-Stick.)

A special encounter's worth, if that. Thirty or so Mormons fucking to try and summon Christ's second coming to end the world and take them all to Heaven. Amusing, and catches the attention, for about five seconds, then it really begs the point of having a purpose for including it.
 
Briosafreak said:
I remember when someone showed up with a discussion about the Thomas More encounter in Fallout2. The vast majority of NMA members that responded to the topic didn`t have a clue about who he was, and an interesting discussion came up from that topic.

More's probably best known for Utopia, which seems like a fitting/gratuitously tacked-on reference in the context. I think the guy in the game is spelled Moore though, whether by design or accident.
 
Knowing Fallout 2's developers "Thomas Moore" was probably inspired from the Monty Python sketch, where Thomas Moore is a back-assward Robin Hood.

"He robs from the poor and gives to the rich...stupid bitch!"

Or, as found at V15:

Something came up recently regarding one of the denizens of Vault City, namely Thomas Moore. The question is pretty simple: is he a reference to the author of Utopia?

Leonard Boyarsky (the original F2 designer who made Moore) says it was most likely a reference to Chad Moore, one of the Interplay artists at the time.

On a side note, that same page has a LOT of information and background origins of those many dead people in vault suits that are found all over Fo2, naive and from Vault City, just like the naive from V13 and etc.

Just add Mormons and viola! Instant re-usable city design! *cough* Not.
 
Roshambo said:
Gays are a predominant part of San Fran today, but you didn't really see any Gay Pride floats in Fallout 2, nor were the Shi/Hubologists/others holding hands, wearing rainbows, and buttfucking each other.

There's actually a script and dialogue file for a "Rainbow patrol" random encounter outside SF. They're set up to attack the PC if they're in a heterosexual marriage, or cheer them on if they're in a homosexual marriage. They're not actually in the game, though, so it seems likely they were the victims of an executive decision.
 
Boyarsky was wrong on that, the speeches about virtue in politics and the value of ethics were signs that they were playing around with More. The fact he worked for the mob on the game was a rather creative form of sarcasm.
 
Per said:
There's actually a script and dialogue file for a "Rainbow patrol" random encounter outside SF. They're set up to attack the PC if they're in a heterosexual marriage, or cheer them on if they're in a homosexual marriage. They're not actually in the game, though, so it seems likely they were the victims of an executive decision.

Bloody hell :shock:
 
If that's not a joke, we'd like some confirmation. If it's true... what Role-Player said.
 
Here's the contents of ecraibow.msg:

{100}{}{Gay pride!}
{101}{}{Down with heteros!}
{102}{}{Outsiders are not welcome!}
{103}{}{Proud to be a dyke!}
{104}{}{Girl power!}
{105}{}{Don't need a man!}
{106}{}{The Rainbow Confederation will live on.}
{107}{}{Retreat to the Love Shack.}
{108}{}{We shall overcome!}
{109}{}{Welcome to the Rainbow Confederation.}
{110}{}{Your kind are welcome here.}
{111}{}{You're one of us.}
{112}{}{Colonizers.}
{113}{}{Colon-ist.}
{114}{}{Queer.}
{115}{}{Pansy.}
{116}{}{Queen.}
{117}{}{Lesbo.}
{118}{}{Dyke.}
{119}{}{This looks to be a }

I think SF is a lot of people's least favourite location in Fo2.
 
Surprise Level: 0% I made that parallel for a reason.

Apparently, someone with a bit of common sense decided that it didn't fit into the setting. Of course, it's funny that "common sense" in game development tends to be rather uncommon as of late.

Either that, or it was planned, and just like with the rest of Fo2, they couldn't fit in all of the easter eggs and other useless crap and still release the game.
 
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