At something awful, new VB screenshot

As far as the religion thing goes, from what I've read of classic sci fi it might be better to avoid real world religion or, instead, to present an incredibly warped version of it. The best recent example of this comes in Stephen King's Dark Tower series (the first book in particular has several good examples, from people worshipping gas pumps to a really warped christian ceremony -"the INTERLOPER!!!!" hehe).

See, the thing is the world of FO is like you are in the Twilight Zone. Any people who go through something as traumatic as nuclear devastation should have a seriously different world view/belief system than what they would have today. As such, having FO mormons just wouldnt seem right unless they were very _very_ twisted (polygamy gone wild, sacrifices, witch burnings, etc). Also, they probably shouldnt be called Mormons but something else (maybe not give themselves a name).

The best idea would be to show a modern religious people as having pieced together their religious beliefs from bits and pieces of assorted Old World religions. They wouldnt just be mormons. Strong Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, Tao, Jewish, etc elements could be tossed into a pot and mish mashed.
 
JE, where any improvemts made with regards to combat ?


When being attacked, and knocking an opponent out, always hated how I couldnt just escape and get my NPCs to leave alone when I play a diplomatic charadther.

Did VanBuren plan to impliment some system where if you had a rope in inventory, you could tieup a KOd person and 'capture' them, thus being able to get a bounty (if a raider) or sell to a slaver group like you could do with your NPCs and Metzgetr in FO2.
 
Fallout is a little reality of it's own, I like it that way. Many things are the same in a way, different in others. None of the groups in Fallout exists in our world. Including a real-world religion is just a bit too close to home.

I'm leaning to what Shevek said, you could have a group that had it's origin in a pre-war organisation but the connection shouldn't be obvious and it should be very twisted from it's origins.
 
Real world religions fit in about as well as real world guns, real world cars, real world city names in the post-apocalypse, and real world events. It helps to be the vocal minority when the vocal minority have a good idea of what would fit.

That is the funny thing about the "vocal minority/silent majority" straw man argument; the only way it ever works is if it assumes that the "silent majority" feels opposite of the "vocal minority". Well, if what I liked about Fallout is also what makes up Fallout's design, is what others like about it, is the reason why the spin-offs didn't do well...well, hmm...seems like the vocal minority has a point. :)
 
But how difficult is it to remember a religions name, that shouldn't be so hard. Generic names for guns are a given, because people would forget or don't know how to read.

But..still as a 50 pulp RPG which has a different "evolution" it would make sense to not follow the real world.. I guess it's a matter of making the Fallout world realistic or just all out fictional..
 
Fallout always was a weird fusion of the real world and 20th century futurism. I just can't see Fallout as being purely "retrofuture" - no flying cars or stylish rayguns, for once.

That being said, weren't there supposed to be monks at the FO2's abbey? I wonder if they were christians (as the post-apoc monks in "Canticle for Leibowitz", quasi-religious junkmongers, or some kind of fusion of different cults and religions.
 
Roshambo said:
Real world religions fit in about as well as real world guns, real world cars, real world city names in the post-apocalypse, and real world events.
I have to say that I don't see why it's inherently better to call something that's clearly Los Angeles "Adytum". I suppose you could say that it's in Lolifornia and that the United States of Flamerica was fighting a war against the Mommunists, but again, if it's that transparent, what's the benefit? A gun is a machine, mass-produced. With a specific name, people associate a lot of quantifiable things with it. Cities, governments, and religions are made up of people and change over time. Los Angeles in 1930 isn't like Los Angeles today and it's doubtful it would be like the Los Angeles of the 2070s. Still, using Los Angeles can allow a certain level of familiarity to play with.

For a long time, I've believed that one of the major themes of Fallout was the conflict between post-war (WWII) era naive optimism and the realities of survival in the wasteland. You see this most clearly in the portrayal of the residents of Vault 13 juxtaposed against the communities of the Fallout world. I think the idea of a Mormon community in the wasteland plays into that and gives the player a decent cultural starting point for empathizing with the residents. They aren't followers of a completely fictional cult, they're members of a traditional historical denomination that has been transformed through their extraordinary circumstances.

Many people living in the United States today understand the fundamental concepts of Christianity, and a subset of that group understand the fundamental concepts of Mormonism. Having that background helps the player empathize, in my opinion. It's easier for most people to empathize with familiar things, even transformed. The basic elements have a lot of cultural currency, and thematic ideas pop into a player's head just through the initial presentation.

Do they follow the Ten Commandments? If not, what did they break, and how do they justify it?

Are they polygamists, as the Mormons used to be (and in some cases, still are)? If so, how do they justify that?

Do they still follow a Living Prophet? What happens when two people claim to be the Living Prophet? Are the visions of the Living Prophet genuine, or some hallucination caused by an unknown source?

How do they decide when to let people into their community? Do they accept all believers? Do they reject mutants (echoing the racist past of the Church of Latter-Day Saints) or accept them (reflecting the new stance of the CoLDS)? How do different members feel about this?

How do the people feel about accepting and rejecting people of other beliefs in a time when human resources are so scarce? The bible tells believers to reject and not associate with non-believers. How much do the Mormons enforce this? Are they ever tempted to go against what is written, purely as a matter of survival?

That is why I liked the idea of using a real-world religion (Mormons, specifically, since they fit into the area). I understand where you're coming from, but I think a line can be drawn between good real-world stuff and potentially problematic real-world stuff. I think we all want people to have some frame of reference to the altered world in which they play. It needs to be familiar enough to draw the player in, but foreign enough to make the player think.

Roshambo said:
It helps to be the vocal minority when the vocal minority have a good idea of what would fit.
Then you do not at all fit into the category that I described: a nonsensical vocal minority. Dismissing the vocal minority is a bad idea when the vocal minority has good ideas. Dismissing the vocal minority when they're a bunch of reactionary, illogical pinheads isn't a bad idea. Mormons irrationally complaining about the portrayal of Mormons in an M-rated game that they would never purchase fall into the latter category.
 
J.E. Sawyer said:
I have to say that I don't see why it's inherently better to call something that's clearly Los Angeles "Adytum".

In Fallout the LA Boneyard or the Angels' Boneyard was the huge area of ruins that was Los Angeles; Adytum (that's a real word, by the way) was the name of a specific settlement located in this region. It wasn't called Adytum to hide the fact that it was LA; it was because the designers had thought one step further.

J.E. Sawyer said:
I suppose you could say that it's in Lolifornia and that the United States of Flamerica was fighting a war against the Mommunists, but again, if it's that transparent, what's the benefit?

I think no one has asked for a painfully obvious Yangs/Coms metaphor that pretends not to be the real world. The question is to what extent earlier names and designations would be preserved and/or to what extent that's a good idea in the first place.
 
Per said:
It wasn't called Adytum to hide the fact that it was LA; it was because the designers had thought one step further.
I wasn't arguing against the designer's (unknown, unless I've missed something) motives; I was arguing against Rosh's assertion that no real-world names have a place in Fallout.

J.E. Sawyer said:
The question is to what extent earlier names and designations would be preserved and/or to what extent that's a good idea in the first place.
I think that a community of religious people surviving in a Vault would have a pretty good chance of preserving the name of their religion and major figures in it. Mormons have traditionally been insanely dedicated to record keeping, especially with regards to genealogy. They have also been extremely community-oriented, making the cooperative preservation of knowledge and tradition more likely than it might be with a lot of other groups.

Do you think the reasons I gave for wanting to include Mormons are valid or invalid?
 
They may indeed be able to preserve their religion in a Vault. The question is less one of realism rather than one of style. I see that you are willing to deal with their religion and how it would adapt to the realities of the time. This is good but I would, again, emphasize that for such an element to work in such a pulp setting in needs to be Twlight Zone warped (perhaps in extreme ways that may not seem realistic - signifying not only adaptation but a fundamental change of world view instigated by the gravity of world events).

Im gonna see if I can dig up my Dark Tower books; maybe I can quote a page that shows what Im getting at.
 
J.E. Sawyer said:
Do you think the reasons I gave for wanting to include Mormons are valid or invalid?

They're your reasons, of course they're valid. If you wanted to include Mormons because you have a thing for sideburns, that would also have been a valid reason of some kind. ;)
 
J.E. Sawyer said:
Per said:
It wasn't called Adytum to hide the fact that it was LA; it was because the designers had thought one step further.
I wasn't arguing against the designer's (unknown, unless I've missed something) motives; I was arguing against Rosh's assertion that no real-world names have a place in Fallout.

Or rather, that they did not really belong with the fictional scope of Fallout. In previous times, did you see "The New Baptist Church of the Apocalypse"? Face it, the only reason why BIS didn't use Scientologists in Fo2 was because of the undoubted lawsuits that would have arisen. "Hubologists" also fits better, especially given the prevalent theme of the game of using an alternate timeline and how the setting was presented. There's really no purpose to deviating from that, and unless you did make it a parody, putting Mormons into the setting might have been cute but otherwise wouldn't have earned you any style points for working it into the setting. The setting, which I thought was a wasteland, not a post-apocalyptic hit parade.

Then, of course, I could also point out the most prevalent aspect of a church in seclusion like that. Even the Catholic church has changed in 200 years. Mormonism, in seclusion, would likely turn into some creepy Logan's Run kind of society. It especially goes for any religion that is based off of fiction less than a thousand years old. Cults are wont to change, depending upon who has the reigns. Let's also not forget the manner of interperetation could also "change", as is frequent in the Christian faith and is basically how the Mormons "got started" in the first place.

To put it into a sci-fi example, they might have gone down into the Vault as Mormons, but they probably would have come out as Morlocks, especially if you're familiar with Mormon works.

J.E. Sawyer said:
The question is to what extent earlier names and designations would be preserved and/or to what extent that's a good idea in the first place.
I think that a community of religious people surviving in a Vault would have a pretty good chance of preserving the name of their religion and major figures in it. Mormons have traditionally been insanely dedicated to record keeping, especially with regards to genealogy. They have also been extremely community-oriented, making the cooperative preservation of knowledge and tradition more likely than it might be with a lot of other groups.

Do you think the reasons I gave for wanting to include Mormons are valid or invalid?

Yeah, as fodder to feed the rest of the wasteland if they are still yesteryear's Scientologists then as they are in current times. :twisted:
 
J.E. Sawyer said:
Er, no. Actually, we decided to use Mormons for the reasons stated. I'm not really sure how you came to the conclusion you did.

Which would be that it takes place partially in Utah? Because like I said, you can do the rest with just a little bit of creativity, and do it better. It also runs less risk of pissing people off, including non-Mormons who might find the situations and characters offensive just because there's a bit of the Let's Slay the Christians LEWL! in the game. UTAH = MORMONS. Wonderful.

Let's play SPOT THE TREND, shall we?

  • Fallout: Three cults, all fictional in nature. Brotherhood of Steel, Followers of the Apocalypse, and the Children of the Cathedral.
  • Fallout 2: One fictional cult, the Shi. One cult that's a rip off of Scientology, the Hubologists.
  • Fallout 3: Mormons.

Neat, huh?

Well, if there's a lot of room, why can't a few real-world things be examined as well? Mormonism wasn't the only religion/cult present in F3.

Why does the examination have to be direct? Why can't you satirize it? I really don't think Orwell's Animal Farm would have had the impact it had if Snowball had been called Trotsky or Old Major had been called Karl Marx. Do you think Miller's The Crusible would have been better off if it were all about Joe MacArthy? You could just as easily have done something similar to the ups and downs of the Church of Latter Day Saints in a pulp post apocalyptic setting without actually making reference to that faith.

You are the most creative person I have ever known in my life. Only you are worthy of being the true heir of Fallout.

Yeah, kneel before me. Lick my boots, boy.

Are they polygamists, as the Mormons used to be (and in some cases, still are)? If so, how do they justify that?

Good thing Fallout 3 was partly set in Utah, so we can point out Mormons used to have harems.

Do they reject mutants (echoing the racist past of the Church of Latter-Day Saints) or accept them (reflecting the new stance of the CoLDS)?

Good thing Fallout 3 is set partly in Utah so we can point out how racist Mormons used to be.

You don't think those two things alone would be enough to piss off the Mormons? Or even people sympathetic to Mormons?

I'm sure he and I and you and Farmer Bob and Officer McManus could all sit around and think up cult ideas until next Saturday.

How about the idea of pre-war modern cult prophet is so loved, that upon his death, the cult spends all it's resources getting his brain placed in a modified brain bot so they could continue his existance and hear his messages of peace and harmony through the ages. Flash forward until after the war, after Fallout and Fallout 2, you have a 200+ year old brain bot with failing parts doing what ever he can to make sure he gets the repairs and supplies he needs to maintain his immortality?

Oh, the possibilities of a Mormonless Fallout 3.
 
Saint_Proverbius said:
How about the idea of pre-war modern cult prophet is so loved, that upon his death, the cult spends all it's resources getting his brain placed in a modified brain bot so they could continue his existance and hear his messages of peace and harmony through the ages. Flash forward until after the war, after Fallout and Fallout 2, you have a 200+ year old brain bot with failing parts doing what ever he can to make sure he gets the repairs and supplies he needs to maintain his immortality?

You could even at one point cause the bot to fail and the messages of peace that faithful followers were trying to follow would become garbled, which caused differences of opinion within the cult as to what the leader was trying to say. A very simple scenario would be to have the bot say something similar to the proverbial "make love, not war", but the malfunction would cause it to say "make... war".
 
I agree in general with the idea that real-world religions should not be used in a setting as otherworldly as fallout.

the only viable reason for using a real-world religion - or ideology - in a setting like fallout would be to assert the tragic irony of human nature persisting despite the destruction of all he/she knew. This idea could then be explored in a either a very fundamentalist interpretation of said religion surviving after the bombs fell, or - as mentioned - a seriously warped version of said religion.

I think the proliferation of cults and religions in FO2 wasn't so much a bad thing, as it pointed to some fundamental points about issues regarding desolation and bitter irony inherent in a setting like FO's.

Translating this onto the game itself, well, yes - originality should be called for, but reference to something in our present milieu would have been more relevant (and more effective) to connect or engender in players the kind of meaning or mood required for the setting. An opinion, yes.

So, yeah - church of Mormon, but change the name, change some basic precepts and you'll have something effective as a narrative tool.
 
You guys have some clever ideas. It's too bad that more people don't want to do something with these ideas. I sat around for a long time, waiting for someone else to make the game I wanted, but then one day, I tired of waiting and... Guess what? I joined a mod team. The drawback is the game I work on won't be for me, but for others, and I won't be paid, but hopefully my payoff will be that I brought some joy to others. The really awful result could be that we didn't have enough talented people willing to make a sacrifice.
I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings. I guess all I'm trying to say is at some point you have to decide, 'Am I part of the problem or part of the solution?' I know which side I want to be on.
 
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