Sort of like the pk dick short story, last of the masters, which was about these super robots that the world governments had, which were destroyed by the anarchy league or something, and one remained and set up a mini world based upon pre-govt destruction times. and the robot dude is dying and stuff. you guys should rip stuff from pk dick. he is awesome.
At something awful, new VB screenshot
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Sort of like the pk dick short story, last of the masters, which was about these super robots that the world governments had, which were destroyed by the anarchy league or something, and one remained and set up a mini world based upon pre-govt destruction times. and the robot dude is dying and stuff. you guys should rip stuff from pk dick. he is awesome.
No.Saint_Proverbius said:
In the first part of your post, you ignore everything I already posted about what I consider to be the advantages of using a real-world religion. Specifically, that Christianity contains a lot of automatic cultural currency with most American and European audiences.
Now, in this section of your post, you ignore that I already stated there were more religious groups and belief systems in Van Buren than just Mormons.
Because the goal wasn't ridicule, the goal was legitimate examination.
And in some cases, they still do.
And in some cases, they still are.
Please forgive me if I have difficulty believing you have a sincere problem with Mormons being upset about the game that traditionally features melting children and hard drug use. Since when do you give a rat's ass about upsetting anyone? More to the point, since when do you care whom a game publisher pisses off?
Now, assuming you were sincere, I still have to wonder why you would consider any such outcry to be even remotely rational and worth caring about.
Historical Facts: For many years, polygamy was not only allowed, but encouraged by Joseph Smith and the CoLDS. A while ago, the Living Prophet declared that he received a vision telling him that it was no longer necessary. They officially stopped doing it, but there are still examples of people who claim to be Mormons who practice polygamy or, more accurately, polygyny.
Historical Facts: For many years, the CoLDS had offical, racist policies against African-Americans. They were not allowed to join the priesthood of the faith, among other things. This officially changed in the late 70s, though many African-Americans still feel they are subject to racism by members of the CoLDS.
These are pretty well-established. If someone has a problem with the statement of these facts, they fall into the same category as members of the Flat Earth Society, and should be launched into the sun for the crime of blockheaded obstinance.
I will repeat what I stated before: I don't care about nonsensical ravings. I discussed the ideas for New Canaan with both an active and a former Mormon who worked at Black Isle. Both of these men were individuals whom I considered to be intelligent, thoughtful, and generally reasonable. They did not have a problem with how I was presenting this particular Mormon community. I respect their opinions more than the opinions of random yahoos who feel the need to get offended about the declaration and discussion of widely accepted factual matters.
Or maybe that could be another group of people in the game. I don't know why you insist on pretending like Van Buren was Fallout 3: Mormon Time. I already stated in this thread that New Canaan wasn't even critical path.
By the way, I am curious, do people really think that the Children of the Cathedral or the Followers of the Apocalypse were interesting religious groups with a lot of depth? Personally, I didn't. I really wished that the BoS had more ritualistic depth to it. One of the most disappointing things about Tactics for me was the move of the Brotherhood from a quasi-cultish group of technophiles to a shit-kicking paramilitary outfit.
I just remembered another reason why I like using real-world religious/political groups: it gets people to discuss things.
I just remembered another reason why I like using real-world religious/political groups: it gets people to discuss things.
I think the Children were the most interesting group, even though they didnt have very much depth, as the Followers were almost completely devoid of anything you might call "depth". Basically, they had one "base" (the library) and one "talking head" NPC, who didnt say much, and the rest of the followers were just sprouting one-liners.
Of course, they had their place in the game and the enviroment, I just think it is completely misguided to imply that the Followers in Fo1 had any kind of "depth" (in the gameworld, not the concept, which for all I know could have been very well thought-out and have 10-pages long design documents
. Its just that there wasn't much depth to find in-game).
Oh, and the Followers weren't really "religious", were they?
Of course, they had their place in the game and the enviroment, I just think it is completely misguided to imply that the Followers in Fo1 had any kind of "depth" (in the gameworld, not the concept, which for all I know could have been very well thought-out and have 10-pages long design documents
. Its just that there wasn't much depth to find in-game).Oh, and the Followers weren't really "religious", were they?
J.E. Sawyer said:
I thought they were interesting, but yeah, not as much depth as I would have liked (or any at all, really). Compare them to the blood cult and the Church of the Mushroom Cloud in Wasteland - even with the limitations of that game those two groups had more depth than Fallout's. Definitely a part of the game I wish they'd spent more time on.
I don't think many people here will disagree with that one.
The CoC were designed to be a cult with hidden agenda. That was the point. It wasn't a new religion or anything.
The Followers were self-styled "pacifists", not a new religious group. Even their leader (what was her name again) said sternly "We don't _worship_ anything".
BoS wasn't "technophiles" either. The impression I got was more of a reclusive remnants of US Army - they don't bother anyone and don't let anyone bother them. Very professional, with a long-standing tradition - nothing "cultish" about it.
The Followers were self-styled "pacifists", not a new religious group. Even their leader (what was her name again) said sternly "We don't _worship_ anything".
BoS wasn't "technophiles" either. The impression I got was more of a reclusive remnants of US Army - they don't bother anyone and don't let anyone bother them. Very professional, with a long-standing tradition - nothing "cultish" about it.
Saint seems to think they were all cults; that's why I was asking.
I do consider the BoS to be at least a little cultish. They seem to have a specific goal: the preservation and protection of technology. I wouldn't go so far as to say they worship technology, but... their focus on technology combined with their traditions and quasi-knighty hierarchy make them seem cultish to me.
I do consider the BoS to be at least a little cultish. They seem to have a specific goal: the preservation and protection of technology. I wouldn't go so far as to say they worship technology, but... their focus on technology combined with their traditions and quasi-knighty hierarchy make them seem cultish to me.
The Brotherhood Of Steel were supposed to be *known* as a cult, outside people thought they were that, maybe because of the secracy and stuff around the base. There is even a place in the Hub, the GUNS shop, owned by beth, if you are a member of BOS when you ask her about the missing caravans and she says that she think the BOS did it. you can say: "As a *member* of the Brotherhood Of Stell, I can asure you that we dont do stuff like that". Is that so hard to remember?
I didnt even know the followers of the apocalypse were considered a cult, and for what they were worth, they mostly sucked, probably the single group of npcs i hated the most in the first fallout. CoC and BoS were cool, but lacked depth in their "Cult-ish" trappings.
By the way, i agree with the use of mormons, could be interesting depending on how the developers interpreted their lives in the wasteland (J.E. ideas seem pretty good, but then again, we will never know hoe they'd have worked in the final game). Also, i think a game can't be a true fallout if the people making it worry about pissing people off.
By the way, i agree with the use of mormons, could be interesting depending on how the developers interpreted their lives in the wasteland (J.E. ideas seem pretty good, but then again, we will never know hoe they'd have worked in the final game). Also, i think a game can't be a true fallout if the people making it worry about pissing people off.
PsychoSniper
So Old I'm Losing Radiation Signs
JE, what else can you tell us about the other religons that you hinted at ?
Horns Of Dilemma
Horns Of Dilemma
One can build on a story by tapping the associations of the readers.
Selecting the proper ques could fill in the gaps in the painted scenery of any drama.
The risk is what's in the baggage each potential reader/player brings to the table.
Knights Templer might bring forth images of one of those Holy Land crusades and the romantic plot convolutions of "Ivanhoe". Knights Templer got profiled as heretics in the Pope Wars of medieval Europe and that machiavelian history might not be a topic for polite conversation
in ones social circles.
Zane Grey, "Riders of the Purple Sage" , had a 'bishop' as the villain.
Did one associate the problem with Mormon doctrine, a local hierachy that would allow a mortal man so much power, or just a 'bad' person?
Does one consider "The Washington Star" a 'cult' mouth piece even if they know the connection to Rev. Moon?
And after enduring the random proselytizing of adventists and splinter baptists, are the Mormons you actually know any stranger for claiming a founder that dug up holy relics, somewhere west of Dayton and east of the Mississippi?
If the game is to benefit from associations and not be lost in a lose - lose controversy, ... flames and the rumors of flames ... the safer course is to dance around naming names. It's not polite to point.
The risk might be minimized by 'fudging' and blurring the lines in an intellectual property blessed by the conventions of 'free speech'.
And.
The ' devil ' might be in the 'details'.
4too
Horns Of Dilemma
One can build on a story by tapping the associations of the readers.
Selecting the proper ques could fill in the gaps in the painted scenery of any drama.
The risk is what's in the baggage each potential reader/player brings to the table.
Knights Templer might bring forth images of one of those Holy Land crusades and the romantic plot convolutions of "Ivanhoe". Knights Templer got profiled as heretics in the Pope Wars of medieval Europe and that machiavelian history might not be a topic for polite conversation
in ones social circles.
Zane Grey, "Riders of the Purple Sage" , had a 'bishop' as the villain.
Did one associate the problem with Mormon doctrine, a local hierachy that would allow a mortal man so much power, or just a 'bad' person?
Does one consider "The Washington Star" a 'cult' mouth piece even if they know the connection to Rev. Moon?
And after enduring the random proselytizing of adventists and splinter baptists, are the Mormons you actually know any stranger for claiming a founder that dug up holy relics, somewhere west of Dayton and east of the Mississippi?
If the game is to benefit from associations and not be lost in a lose - lose controversy, ... flames and the rumors of flames ... the safer course is to dance around naming names. It's not polite to point.
The risk might be minimized by 'fudging' and blurring the lines in an intellectual property blessed by the conventions of 'free speech'.
And.
The ' devil ' might be in the 'details'.
4too
I'm confused now.
Re: Horns Of Dilemma
The legitimacy of Christianity or Mormonism was never a question explicitly (or even implicitly) asked or answered in the VB design. Here is a sample of a situation from VB: the leader of New Canaan is a man named Jeremiah Rigdon. Jeremiah is the Living Prophet of the faith. He claims to receive visions after having fits. He seems to believe this. Many members of the community believe this, but not all do. Some people think that Jeremiah is intentionally fraudulent or that God is not the source of his visions.
Another member of the community is a supermutant Mormon named "Revelation" John. John also sees and hears things that others do not see or hear. He does not believe that his visions are divinely inspired, but a few others in the community do. Some PCs have the ability to recognize that John is suffering from schizophrenia resulting from his time as a Night Kin scout. The implied question is: if John's visions are the result of a medical conditions, couldn't Jeremiah's be natural as well? No definitive answer is given.
Yet another member of the community is a faux-Mormon named Pablo. Pablo claims to be a Mormon, but is just going through the motions so he can live in New Canaan. He is part of a drug-smuggling operation that defies Jeremiah's explicit ban of such substances in the community. While New Canaan is dying, some PCs can figure out a way that they can survive on a long term basis. However, Pablo would have to be the leader of said solution. If he is exposed as a drug smuggler, Jeremiah would almost certainly throw him out of the community -- even if doing so made it difficult for the community to survive. Implied question: is being so strict on religious taboos worth risking destruction? Again, there is no author-defined answer.
Jeremiah has told the members of the community that God once again wants the Mormons to practice polygyny. So many of the men have died off that God sees that practice as vital to their survival. Not all members think this is a good idea, and many outsiders are disgusted by it. This is never "validated" as "true" in the game. It is simply declared by Jeremiah. It's up to the player to decide whether Jeremiah was really inspired, whether he made it up, or whether he simply dreamed it. Another implied question: if Jeremiah did make it all up, is what he's suggesting wrong or bad?
Marshal is a glowing ghoul who converted to Mormonism. He is dying and going mad, and the priest who ministers to him, Jude, is also dying as he cares for him. Many of the Mormons, who hate ghouls to begin with, want Marshal to be cast out. Jeremiah believes it is immoral to risk the lives of outsiders if Marshal goes mad or -- worse yet -- dies somewhere where his body could harm countless travelers. Marshal is isolated, but Jude volunteers to care for him and perform private ceremonies every day. If the PC talks to Marshal, the ghoul begs him or her to help him escape; he does not want the community to suffer because of his presence, and would rather try to wander far out into the desert than watch Jude slowly weaken and die. It is up to the player to decide the proper course of action by questioning the validity and importance of all viewpoints.
I believe these things are controversial in that people could argue many different ways on them. However, I do not believe they are antagonistic, disrespectful, or insulting.
To be honest, I think part of the solution to this problem is to not explicitly ask such questions, as the narrator, but to present situations that cause the audience to ask questions -- many of which may not have been "intended" by the author. A healthy exploration of a theme provokes questions without hammering the audience over the head with the author's ideas/beliefs on the subject.4too said:
The legitimacy of Christianity or Mormonism was never a question explicitly (or even implicitly) asked or answered in the VB design. Here is a sample of a situation from VB: the leader of New Canaan is a man named Jeremiah Rigdon. Jeremiah is the Living Prophet of the faith. He claims to receive visions after having fits. He seems to believe this. Many members of the community believe this, but not all do. Some people think that Jeremiah is intentionally fraudulent or that God is not the source of his visions.
Another member of the community is a supermutant Mormon named "Revelation" John. John also sees and hears things that others do not see or hear. He does not believe that his visions are divinely inspired, but a few others in the community do. Some PCs have the ability to recognize that John is suffering from schizophrenia resulting from his time as a Night Kin scout. The implied question is: if John's visions are the result of a medical conditions, couldn't Jeremiah's be natural as well? No definitive answer is given.
Yet another member of the community is a faux-Mormon named Pablo. Pablo claims to be a Mormon, but is just going through the motions so he can live in New Canaan. He is part of a drug-smuggling operation that defies Jeremiah's explicit ban of such substances in the community. While New Canaan is dying, some PCs can figure out a way that they can survive on a long term basis. However, Pablo would have to be the leader of said solution. If he is exposed as a drug smuggler, Jeremiah would almost certainly throw him out of the community -- even if doing so made it difficult for the community to survive. Implied question: is being so strict on religious taboos worth risking destruction? Again, there is no author-defined answer.
Jeremiah has told the members of the community that God once again wants the Mormons to practice polygyny. So many of the men have died off that God sees that practice as vital to their survival. Not all members think this is a good idea, and many outsiders are disgusted by it. This is never "validated" as "true" in the game. It is simply declared by Jeremiah. It's up to the player to decide whether Jeremiah was really inspired, whether he made it up, or whether he simply dreamed it. Another implied question: if Jeremiah did make it all up, is what he's suggesting wrong or bad?
Marshal is a glowing ghoul who converted to Mormonism. He is dying and going mad, and the priest who ministers to him, Jude, is also dying as he cares for him. Many of the Mormons, who hate ghouls to begin with, want Marshal to be cast out. Jeremiah believes it is immoral to risk the lives of outsiders if Marshal goes mad or -- worse yet -- dies somewhere where his body could harm countless travelers. Marshal is isolated, but Jude volunteers to care for him and perform private ceremonies every day. If the PC talks to Marshal, the ghoul begs him or her to help him escape; he does not want the community to suffer because of his presence, and would rather try to wander far out into the desert than watch Jude slowly weaken and die. It is up to the player to decide the proper course of action by questioning the validity and importance of all viewpoints.
I believe these things are controversial in that people could argue many different ways on them. However, I do not believe they are antagonistic, disrespectful, or insulting.
Sawyer:
While I do recognize that you do have skills, I would also have to say that they are still very green. Just because you were a developer and a lead, that still doesn't make you special, either. Chuck was a producer, when a short while before he was just a scripter. At the same time, I was at NMA while you were still just an Interplay forum fanboy, waiting to graduate from high school, if I remember right.
There are things that you might not quite grasp. Please try to understand that. Respect is given where respect is due, but you're not exactly the one to talk when there's design differences "in the puddin'", so to speak, that point to the contrary.
While your Mormons and New Caanan are quite interesting and may fit into a theme that doesn't offend the special Mormon at BIS you talked to, they are about as relevant to Fallout's setting as New Reno. Hey, Reno had/has mafia still in it, and crime is hard to eliminate when it's family-based, so LOLOOLOLOL, it all fits! I don't think I have to point out that those who have had more experience and did the same thing, before you even started posting on the Fallout 2 feedback forum, have since admitted their mistakes in regards to relevance to setting. The naivete of the emerging Mormons might be just like that of the V13 inhabitants, but that doesn't really make it suitable, either. You have to admit, it's quite a stretch. As with New Reno, while many aspects didn't fit, the design was still good. Keep that in mind, as a lot of what you've said is good, but the whole Mormon thing is fairly laughable.
Then, of course, I could point out the point of the wasteland, to make everything seem destroyed or "impure", and to give a sense of desolation. If you go towards lengths to have any nitwit surviving in the wasteland, then it pretty much pisses on the purpose of having the game set in the wasteland. If there's Mormons, actively living in the setting, then either the setting has been rendered to "Post-Apocalyptic Theme Park" or there's not going to be any Mormons left, or as I have mentioned (and others have pointed out), that if it were in some warped, twisted but creatively different way like the Hubologists, it would fit the setting much better. Otherwise, it sounds almost like Vault City retooled for Mormons.
This is, after all, fiction. To insist on having "Real World Accuracy", especially given Fallout's setting, is quite...I'll just be kind and say it is misplaced.
While I do recognize that you do have skills, I would also have to say that they are still very green. Just because you were a developer and a lead, that still doesn't make you special, either. Chuck was a producer, when a short while before he was just a scripter. At the same time, I was at NMA while you were still just an Interplay forum fanboy, waiting to graduate from high school, if I remember right.
There are things that you might not quite grasp. Please try to understand that. Respect is given where respect is due, but you're not exactly the one to talk when there's design differences "in the puddin'", so to speak, that point to the contrary.
While your Mormons and New Caanan are quite interesting and may fit into a theme that doesn't offend the special Mormon at BIS you talked to, they are about as relevant to Fallout's setting as New Reno. Hey, Reno had/has mafia still in it, and crime is hard to eliminate when it's family-based, so LOLOOLOLOL, it all fits! I don't think I have to point out that those who have had more experience and did the same thing, before you even started posting on the Fallout 2 feedback forum, have since admitted their mistakes in regards to relevance to setting. The naivete of the emerging Mormons might be just like that of the V13 inhabitants, but that doesn't really make it suitable, either. You have to admit, it's quite a stretch. As with New Reno, while many aspects didn't fit, the design was still good. Keep that in mind, as a lot of what you've said is good, but the whole Mormon thing is fairly laughable.
Then, of course, I could point out the point of the wasteland, to make everything seem destroyed or "impure", and to give a sense of desolation. If you go towards lengths to have any nitwit surviving in the wasteland, then it pretty much pisses on the purpose of having the game set in the wasteland. If there's Mormons, actively living in the setting, then either the setting has been rendered to "Post-Apocalyptic Theme Park" or there's not going to be any Mormons left, or as I have mentioned (and others have pointed out), that if it were in some warped, twisted but creatively different way like the Hubologists, it would fit the setting much better. Otherwise, it sounds almost like Vault City retooled for Mormons.
This is, after all, fiction. To insist on having "Real World Accuracy", especially given Fallout's setting, is quite...I'll just be kind and say it is misplaced.
Why does this even need to be mentioned? I had a PhD professor of history try to tell me that Constantine made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. A person's pedigree has little to nothing to do with their validity on any subject unless experience is specificially the topic of discussion. If your arguments are well-founded and mine are poorly-founded, what does it matter what my job experience has been?Roshambo said:
Who gets to determine what is and isn't relevant? Does someone have a list of the relevant stuff?
I don't think New Reno and Mormons really have any analogues outside of the fact that they were both in "real world" Earth. I think Chris' reasons for deciding that New Reno didn't fit into the setting had less to do with the idea of a town torn apart by crime families and more to do with the specific style of characters in that area. However, I cannot speak for him.
But really, let's break down New Reno. If New Reno were exactly as it was designed, but it were named Desolation or Black Rock, would you have liked it? More to the point, were your problems with the fact that the town was called New Reno or were they with the 20s-style gangsters? It's not like the Wrights, Mordinos, or Bishops were real-world crime families (at least, not as far as I know). And Fallout had other towns with rival crime factions, so... does "real-world" stuff really have anything to do with why you don't like New Reno?
Sorry, I still don't think it's a stretch. What's a stretch about it? The feasibility of such a group surviving? The use of real-world groups in the game at all?
I would argue that tone without contrast makes for a very dull setting. I never thought that Fallout's setting was about everything was being destroyed. Rather, I thought it had a lot to do with people trying to claw their way out of that destruction. I think the continuing struggle is important, and I think this fits into it.
Again, it's not even dominantly for the sake of "accuracy". It's for the reasons I previously mentioned: namely, the large cultural currency that such a real-world group would have with a given audience.